Fuerunt verum est ante adventum Anglorum in Hibernia

Bruodinus

Member
Dear all,
The below passage is about the hereditary nature of the medical profession in Ireland. The highlighted part of the text has already been kindly translated by Pacis puella in a different post, for which I am most appreciative.
I am interested in the rest of the context to be translated (see non-highlighted text) and wondered if someone was able to oblige. As usual, I understand the general meaning, but would like a translation to match that which Pacis puella previously offered on part of the text, if possible please....
Fuerunt verum est ante adventum Anglorum in Hibernia, certae familiae, quibus solis licebat artem medicam exercere; nam sicut Judices errant unius stirpis, & cognominis, & Historici alterius; sic etiam medici erant, unius certae familiae (quales sunt hodie Nelani & Hiquaei, in Tuomonia) qui suos liberos, & cognatos (ut loquitur Camdenus) in sua arte erudiunt, morbósquefeliciter curant, sinè magnis expensis, aut recursu ad Apothecas; (ipse namque herbas, & alia colligebant, & praeparabant, quibus morbos feliciter, & facile curabant) & hi (sicut hodie in Bohema, & Moravia, certis, & juratus medicis, & chirurgis, à provincijs certa datur annualis pension) a Principibus, & alijs, quibus haereditario jure servire tenebantur, annua dabartur solution.

.... of a certain family (such as are today the Neylons and the Hickeys in Tuomonia) who instruct their children and relatives in their art, and cure diseases successfully without great expenses or recourse to drugstores…
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
There were in Ireland, it is true, before the coming of the English, certain families that alone were allowed to practise the medical art; for just as judges were of one stock and one family name, and historians of another, so were physicians also of one certain family, such as are today the Neylons and the Hickeys in Thomond, who instruct their children and relatives (as Camdenus says) in their art, and cure diseases successfully without great expenses or recourse to drugstores; for they themselves gathered and prepared herbs and other things, with which they would successfully and easily cure diseases; and these people (in the same way as today in Bohemia and Moravia certain sworn physicians and surgeons are granted a certain annual pension by the provinces) were granted a yearly payment by leading men and other people whom they were obliged to serve by hereditary right.
 

Tomer

Active Member
I'll give it a shot (with hopes of not getting one myself, lol):

EDIT: There seem to be quite a few errors in this text, so I relied much on the context provided, apart

...It is true that before the arrival of the English in Ireland, there were certain families which were allowed to practise the art of medicine. For just as judges were of one root (i.e. family/race or some other communal source I suppose), and (of the same) surename and of another* history; so still, were the doctors...

[Pacis Puella's Transaltion]

... (for they [shouldn't it be ipsi perhaps? "they-themselves"?] have gathered and prepared the herbs and other things themselves, with which they cured diseases easily and successfully), and these (just as nowadays in Bohema & Moravia**, a fixed, annual pension is given to resolved and sworn doctors and surgeons), who were held by the hereditary law to serve the heads-of-staff and others [influential people maybe], were given an annual relaxation [i.e. vacation, I assume].

*I'm a bit stupefied by alterius.

**I left the original names, assuming you can recognize them on the map yourself.

Hope this helps. Look forward to amendments.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Ipse is doubtless a mistake for ipsi, yes. For the rest, well, see my translation, perhaps it will answer your other doubts. One thing that strikes me, though: you're mistranslating the imperfect tense ("have gathered and prepared" would be perfect).

Also, if "in Ireland" were going with "arrival", it should normally be in the accusative, not in the ablative. Now mistranscriptions are not excluded.
 

Bruodinus

Member
thank you both - great job! I will have a look back over the original text. I am working with a poor copy here so transcription errors are of course possible, or indeed errors in the original text may also exist. But your translations bring out the full meaning which is what I was after, so thank you.

could recursu ad Apothecas just simply be 'recourse to apothecary’s shop' or, simply to 'apothecaries'? In the context I am wondering if drugstore is correct.
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
could recursu ad Apothecas just simply be 'recourse to apothecary’s shop' or, simply to 'apothecaries'? In the context I am wondering if drugstore is correct.
The drug-store vs apothecary's shop issue has already been addressed in this thread.
 

Tomer

Active Member
Thanks, I get it now. Regarding the imperfect, I must have been too tired to begin with. I'm glad the OP is satisfied!
 

Bruodinus

Member
Hello all,

there is a passage immediately prior to the one which has been translated about the physicians of Ireland. It provides a bit more context and would also be good to be translated to complete the entry. Grateful if someone could please try:

Medicos quod attinet Hibernorum, caeci de coloribus judicium, est Lindani, caecorúmque Ducis Stanihurstij, de illi testimonium. Nam illorum medicos libros legere non poterant; nec, Si[?] legissent, in re medica cum illis discurrere valebant. Unde ergo sutoribus (nè sutor ultra crepidam) constare potuit, quod Hibernia haereditas non verò doctrina, medicos facit? Si saepe iterate praxis curandi periculoso morbos, unica est via, qua medici experti in arte sua, doctrina colligitur, Hibernorum medici doctissimi erant. Nam quotidiana experientia eorum in hac parte felicitas constabat, & defecto probatur; deinde in Latina & maternal lingua Galenum, Hypocratem, & alios medicos habuerunt libros, quibus diligenter incumbebant, cur igitur non effent docti?

I am not sure about the transcription of 'Si' in places sorry. The text is not the clearest which I am reading.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I am not sure about the transcription of 'Si' in places sorry. The text is not the clearest which I am reading.
Perhaps it would be easier if you automatically provided the link each time.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Concerning the physicians of the Irish, Lindanus's judgment is the judgment of a blind man concerning colors, and Stanihurstius's testimony about them is that of the leader of the blind. For they were unable to read their medical books, and, if they had read them, they would not have been able to discourse* with them in (about?) medicine. How then could cobblers (let the cobbler stick to his last) feel certain that in Ireland it is heredity, not really knowledge, that makes physicians? If the often-repeated act of curing dangerous diseases is the only thing by which you perceive the knowledge of a physician experienced in his art, the physicians of the Irish were the most learned. For their successfulness on this point was made evident by daily experience, and is proven de facto; then they had, in Latin and in their mother tongue, Galen, Hippocrates and other medical books, which they studied carefully; why then would they not be learned?

*I first had the feeling that it meant something like "compete", but then dictionaries don't give that definition for discurro. "Discourse" was the given definition that seemed to fit best, but I'm still a little unsure because with this meaning I'd have expected de re medica rather than in. Does anyone have an opinion?

P.S. Any comments on English idiom/phrasing are also welcome. For example, I'm not sure whether "the physicians of the Irish" feels most natural, and I'm thinking that perhaps I should translate it less literally as "Irish physicians", but I'm not sure. Callaina, maybe?
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
P.S. Any comments on English idiom/phrasing are also welcome. For example, I'm not sure whether "the physicians of the Irish" feels most natural, and I'm thinking that perhaps I should translate it less literally as "Irish physicians", but I'm not sure. Callaina, maybe?

Hmm, no, I wouldn't. "Irish physicians" sounds like it's mostly about race, whereas given the context of this and the previous quote under discussion, I think the author is talking about about physicians in Ireland, i.e. the medical profession as an system/institution within the country, not really about physicians (anywhere) who happen to be of Irish descent.

Maybe "the physicians of Ireland"?

But "physicians of the Irish" sounds ok, too.
 

Etaoin Shrdlu

Civis Illustris
I'd have said simply 'physicians in Ireland': the context make it clear that the people being referred to are Irish physicians in Ireland, as the author is apparently refuting the claim that there weren't any before the English invaded. For similar reasons I'd translate Fuerunt verum est ante adventum Anglorum in Hibernia etc. as 'the truth is that there were etc.'; to say 'it is true' sounds as though the writer is conceding something his opponent has said, rather than that he's arguing against it.
 

Bruodinus

Member
thanks all - that's really useful. I will take on board the views about 'physicians in Ireland' or 'physicians of the Irish'....
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
to say 'it is true' sounds as though the writer is conceding something his opponent has said, rather than that he's arguing against it.
But it seems to me that he is conceding something his opponents said: that in Ireland it is heredity, not really knowledge, that makes physicians ---> There were in Ireland, it is true, before the coming of the English, certain families that alone were allowed to practise the medical art; for just as judges were of one stock and one family name, and historians of another, so were physicians also of one certain family... (but nonetheless they had knowledge as well.)
 

Etaoin Shrdlu

Civis Illustris
OK, you're probably right. Not all that much of a concession, but I suppose I jumped to the conclusion that he wouldn't be likely to concede anything.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
But it seems to me that he is conceding something his opponents said: that in Ireland it is heredity, not really knowledge, that makes physicians ---> There were in Ireland, it is true, before the coming of the English, certain families that alone were allowed to practise the medical art; for just as judges were of one stock and one family name, and historians of another, so were physicians also of one certain family... (but nonetheless they had knowledge as well.)
Yeah, I was thinking the same...
 
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