Grant me the power of deteriorating the mental or social attribute of another.

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
There are several problems there, mainly:

- The ablative (or dative?) consuetudinibus in the first version just doesn't fit in grammatically.

- Consuetudo means custom/habit or intimacy, not "social dealing".

- Mentis virtutem would rather mean mental strength/virtue than an attribute in a more neutral sense.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
No. I don't think anything proposed so far is a good translation, and honestly, at the moment I have no clue how to translate it.
 
Considering the great difficulty in expressing each of the six traits as Mental Attributes and Social Attributes, would it be easier to just insert the Latin words for the traits in parentheses individually?
Would it make it easier if I worded like this?
Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily my (Intelligence, Wits, Resolve) or my (Presence, Manipulation, Composure).
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris
There are several problems there, mainly:
- Consuetudo means custom/habit or intimacy, not "social dealing".


I was going with LSJ IIA where it is 'social intercourse' or 'conversation' as well as 'intimacy', but I think I must have erred in my interpretation of the translation, as it does seem to mean 'intimacy' rather than 'social interaction'. The only alternative I could think of was commercium, LSJ IIA 'intercourse, communication' but I don't know if that is explicit enough either.

- Mentis virtutem would rather mean mental strength/virtue than an attribute in a more neutral sense.

Fair enough, but we are dealing with virtues (intelligence, wit and resolve) rather than entirely neutral attributes. Do you think mentis ex virtútibus unam would work better? Or just virtútem aliquam maybe?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Fair enough, but we are dealing with virtues (intelligence, wit and resolve) rather than entirely neutral attributes. Do you think mentis ex virtútibus unam would work better? Or just virtútem aliquam maybe?
It would be slightly better, yes.

Using commercium in some way or other occurred to me as well, but simply changing facultatis consuetudinis to facultatis commercii wouldn't be enough to fix things.

In fact, I made an attempt at translation, which I didn't intend to post publicly yet because I'm not quite satisfied with it, but since I see that the discussion goes on, well, I'll post it. And after all, maybe it's just impossible to have a "perfect" translation here, so... Darklander doesn't have to take it right away (he can wait a few days in case some saviour comes or I experience an enlightenment of some sort), but here it is:

Da mihi potestatem corrumpendi aliquam alterius qualitatem vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineat = "Grant me the power of deteriorating another's characteristic, either one of the mind or one that has to do with one's behavior in human intercourses."
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris
Considering the great difficulty in expressing each of the six traits as Mental Attributes and Social Attributes, would it be easier to just insert the Latin words for the traits in parentheses individually?
Would it make it easier if I worded like this?
Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily my (Intelligence, Wits, Resolve) or my (Presence, Manipulation, Composure).
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus
That is quite a forbidding list.

Intelligence: sapientia
Wits: astútia
Resolve: constantia
Manipulation: facultas décipiendí
Composure: tranquillitas animí

What precisely do you mean by 'Presence'?

Da mihi potestatem corrumpendi aliquam alterius qualitatem vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineat
I'm a little uncomfortable about applying quálitatem to the quality of a person like that - in Cicero it tends to be used in a more abstract sense and in philosophical contexts. Of course, 'attribute' is quite an abstract word to apply to a person in English as well, so maybe that works. And the direct object with a gerund? Or are we allowing that with Darklander?

Otherwise it seems good, provided Darklander will accept substituting an adjective with a relative clause.
 
The following is what the World of Darkness main rulebook defines as Presence:

Bearing. Stature. Assertiveness. Presence suggests the
power of your character's very identity. Attractiveness is
only part of the trait. Your character may be jaw-dropping
gorgeous, plain-Jane or downright ugly, but her Presence
means much more. It reflects her sheer command over
the attention of others. It's her capacity to impose her
will on others by being socially aggressive or powerful Ñ
a veritable bull in a china shop or someone who simply
doesn't accept no for an answer. This trait is essential to
leaders, enforcers, interrogators, models, politicians and
salespeople.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I'm a little uncomfortable about applying quálitatem to the quality of a person like that - in Cicero it tends to be used in a more abstract sense and in philosophical contexts. Of course, 'attribute' is quite an abstract word to apply to a person in English as well, so maybe that works.
I don't know. It's probably a bit unusual, but I just couldn't find better... This translation is really the hardest I've had to do for some time.
And the direct object with a gerund? Or are we allowing that with Darklander?
The gerundive construction may be more usual when the gerund would have had a direct object, but the gerund + direct object construction isn't forbidden either, especially when it's needed for clarity's sake, which seems to me is the case here.
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
I was going with LSJ IIA
LSJ stands for Liddell Scott Jones, by the way; for Lewis and Short the abbreviation is L&S.

I admit the similarity is confusing. L&S is arguably misnamed anyway; Short collaborated but his contribution to the dictionary that was published consists only of entries for the letter A.

In short, Short's contribution was short.
 
Pacifica would that translation work in the following cases?
(alterius qualitatem vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineat)

Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily one or more mental and social attributes of another.
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus unum vel plus

Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily a mental or social attribute of another.
Da mihi potestatem augendiad tempus

Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily one of my mental or social attributes.
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Staying on the same lines as with my attempt for the first phrase (which hasn't yet been definitively declared the best you can get — what does Aurifex think of it, if anything?):

Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily one or more mental and social attributes of another.
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus unam aut plures alterius qualitates vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineant.


Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily a mental or social attribute of another.
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus aliquam alterius qualitatem vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineat.


Grant me the power of augmenting temporarily one of my mental or social attributes.
Da mihi potestatem augendi ad tempus unam ex meis qualitatibus vel mentis vel quae ad mores in commerciis humanis pertineant.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
The following is what the World of Darkness main rulebook defines as Presence:

Bearing. Stature. Assertiveness. Presence suggests the
power of your character's very identity. Attractiveness is
only part of the trait. Your character may be jaw-dropping
gorgeous, plain-Jane or downright ugly, but her Presence
means much more. It reflects her sheer command over
the attention of others. It's her capacity to impose her
will on others by being socially aggressive or powerful Ñ
a veritable bull in a china shop or someone who simply
doesn't accept no for an answer. This trait is essential to
leaders, enforcers, interrogators, models, politicians and
salespeople.
So pretty much identical to the D&D attribute "Charisma".
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris
LSJ stands for Liddell Scott Jones, by the way; for Lewis and Short the abbreviation is L&S.

Yes, sorry - too used to Greek at the moment...
 
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