Horace Epode V

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
These epodes are composed of distichs in iambic trimeter followed by iambic dimeter. However, the first line here doesn't fit that former metre. I'm probably missing something.

venena maga non fas nefasque, non valent
convertere humanam vicem.

Habetis aliquam explicationem? Gratias.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Another troublesome iambic dimeter:

et Esquilinae alites

Is there a hiatus to make the metre work?
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
All subs are allowed, as long as the iambic beat is preserved. The iambs that are of importance are on the 2nd, 4th and 6th feet, the rest are pretty much what ever you wish. 2, 4, 6 could be substituted by 3 rapid shots.

I would read it as follows:

vene | na maga | non fas | nefas | que, non | valent
u- | uuu | -- | u- | u- | u-



in the diameter the same idea, keep the 2nd and 4th feet somewhat clean.

conver (spondee but word accent makes it iambish sounding) | ter' hum (clean iamb)| anam | vicem.

(spondee in the 1th and 3th)
 

socratidion

Civis Illustris
For the first one, I get (dividing into six feet rather than three, for clarity)
˘ ¯ | ˘ ˘˘ | ¯ ¯ | ˘ ¯ | ˘ ¯ | ˘ ¯
For the second one, I think you're right, the end of Esquilinae doesn't disappear, so either hiatus, or (hey, just thinking out loud here) half-eliding the diphthong to make it short? Or is that something you only do in Greek?
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
For the first one, I get (dividing into six feet rather than three, for clarity)
˘ ¯ | ˘ ˘˘ | ¯ ¯ | ˘ ¯ | ˘ ¯ | ˘ ¯
For the second one, I think you're right, the end of Esquilinae doesn't disappear, so either hiatus, or (hey, just thinking out loud here) half-eliding the diphthong to make it short? Or is that something you only do in Greek?

I thought about it a bit, I think both hiatus and a half eaten ae, sound good. Maybe because of the natural stress of alites being it's in a nominative (lupi et alites). If you just look at the natural word stress it flows with or with out ae.

et Esquilin' || alites

post insepulta membra different lupi
et Esquilinae alites

EDIT:
We can also imagine a: et Es | quilin | iae a | lites.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Thanks, guys. And no, socratidion, I know nothing about Greek prosody just yet.
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
Quote Socratidion: "Or is that something you only do in Greek?"
No, so-called correption happens in Latin too. There are instances of it at Aeneid III, 211 and Aeneid V, 261, and elsewhere.
 

Christian Alexander

Active Member
I also would scan "maga" as a resolved (two shorts=one long), so the only actual "variation" I think we're seeing is the spondee in the first half of the second metron.

Check out this other line of Horace's from the same Epode, almost exactly like the one above except it starts with a spondee with resolution (or possible to scan a dactyl)"
Cānĭdĭ|-ă brĕvi|-bus ĭll|-ĭgāt|-ă vīp|-ĕrīs
(http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/horace/ep.shtml)



Not sure how any more helpful any of that was but I can't pass up getting to talk about Horace!
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
Check out this other line of Horace's from the same Epode, almost exactly like the one above except it starts with a spondee with resolution (or possible to scan a dactyl)"
Cānĭdĭ|-ă brĕvi|-bus ĭll|-ĭgāt|-ă vīp|-ĕrīs
(http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/horace/ep.shtml)
I'd say the first foot there's a dactyl. The first syllable of illigata is long though, isn't it? Most texts I know have implicata instead.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Cānĭdĭ|-ă brĕvi|-bus ĭll|-ĭgāt|-ă vīp|-ĕrīs

That's the "standard" scansion with the most important point already pointed out by Aurifex that ill must be heavy.

PS: Iambic meters are fascinating, for example there is nothing wrong with reciting the line as follows:

Cani | dia, bre | vibus ill | iga | ta vi | peris

the point being that #1: anapests maintain the iambic beat because of the natural words stress, and #2: a in Canidia becomes short (or rather not stressed) just like in iambic senarius. This might not apply Horace as he from what I've read was more reserved with his subs. It's a long but an interesting topic.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Isn't iambic senarius same as iambic trimeter? Explain.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Isn't iambic senarius same as iambic trimeter? Explain.

The rhythm is almost the same. It's possible to classify them as: iambic senarius is a more relaxed form of iambic trimeter. idest, with more substitutions allowed. (Think of iambs of Plautus for example where anapests take place of iambs, first of spondee becomes short because of stress of the second etc...).
The heart of a iambic meter is the iambic stress more so than quantity.
 

Christian Alexander

Active Member
Yea I have seen implicata for that spot too, not sure which is more reliable to take; I took illigata mainly because I use the Latin Library for most of my Latin poetry texts, I do not know the scholarship behind the decision in this particular case though! :) .
 

Christian Alexander

Active Member
Right, just as LUCIFER mentioned Plautus etcetera: I believe "senarius" was the term when used for the theatre, trimetre (3metra, a metron being a group of two feet) being the name outside the theatre; I've read that the main difference in composition is that senarius was analysed into single feet (so, "6 feet") as opposed to metra, where in metra the rules of variation become much stricter (like variation is technically only allowed in the "first half" of each metron).

[I personally am a big fan of composing in iambic trimetre, and it is a great metre for satire (and I guess the trimetre was a metre for old satire but I personally havn't come across them yet), and translating Horace's 3rd Epode into English iambic distichs was an awesome experience, and can't wait to get around to the others]


Anyways, I realize I pretty much just said what LCF, but again, I like to put my two cents in, in case I covered something passed over
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Forgive ignorance, but I thought metron translated into foot in English...
 

Christian Alexander

Active Member
Honestly off the top of my head I'm not 100% what "metron" literally means ;) but I do believe it is the term used for metres which "pair" feet together (sng.metron, pl.metra). I will have to look that up now, hopefully I'm not getting something mixed up..
 

Christian Alexander

Active Member
Yes! I love that one, the last couplet is gold.


If anyone has raised his unjust hand to snap
His sorry old-man’s neck in spite —
I’d vote to force some garlic down the b*stard’s throat.
O, farmers must be indomitable!
What is this sorcery wreaking havoc in my breast?
What, was this vile herbage steeped
In vipers’ blood? or has that one malicious witch
Canídia some hand in this?
Medéä was astonished by the leader of
The Argonauts and his pretty face;
And when he brought those bulls infernal neath the yoke,
This herb itself she smeared on him,
And twas alike what drenched his sweetheart’s wedding dress
As she gave her dragons’ back the whip.
Upon the plains of parched Apúlia the stars
Have not a greater fire brought,
Nor had the gift stretched o’er the pecks of Hercules
A kindling more intense by far.

Yet if you plan more jests, conspiring thus again
Like this, Maecénas, I pray your girl
Can smell you across the room, to slap away your kiss
And hug the bedside far from you!
 
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