Hot-Stove Latin

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

Having accepted signa, we can perhaps quickly expand our glossary in that area of the game:

to give signs: signa dare
(or for the catcher, to put down signs: signa deponere).
(or for the third-base coach to put up a stop sign: signum sistendo erigere or statuere).
to take (or get) a sign: signum accipere.
to miss a sign: a signo (de)errare.
to steal signs: signa furari.
to change signs: signa mutare.

noise: strepitus, -us (m).
indicator: I prefer indicator, -oris (m) to signum indicans.

A more difficult problem is how one might express the idea of a sign being “on” or “off”. There is not, as far as I know, any similar idiom in Latin. I would suggest adapting concepts from programming, in which flags may be “set” or “cleared”. A signum that is “on” might be positum, and one that is “off” amotum (or perhaps purgatum? I think I prefer amotum).

As for “giving someone the green light”, I than think of nothing to do but translate verbatim: alicui lucem viridem dare. Unless—was there some sort of starting signal at the circus, or some other ancient spectacle?

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In a different area: I was considering how one might say "infield chatter". My first thought was garulitas inagelli. It quickly occurred to me that this would mean extending inagellus (as we do with "infield") to refer not only to that part of the field, but also collectively to those defenders ("infielders" or, I suppose, custodes inagelli) who play there. Any problem with this?
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

1. I have promoted Cato's ingressus (= inning) to accepted in the glossary (newcomers to this thread: the glossary is in the second post in the thread--please feel free to comment).

2. Some time back Cato also proposed aditus for "at bat". It's a fine distinction, but I think this word better suited for "plate appearance".
For AB we might use something like occasio icendi. Or am I here succumbing to a temptation to "improve" the nomenclature rather than simply to translate it?

3. I have at this point deleted from the glossary all proposed words for "strike" except for the laesio of Cato Chicagoensis. But I have left it in green, as I am still not really satisfied with it. Glare defines laesio as either "an injury" or as a rhetorical term signifying "a part of a speech designed to injure an opponent's case".

In addition to the various words already proposed here for "strike", I have considered plaga and verber-- neither of which ring my bell.

There is a verb that seems to me very close to the concept of "strike": ferio. It can mean not only to strike, as with a hand or weapon, but also to hit a target, or to cozen or to fool. But its perfect forms are generally supplied by percutio (which we have already considered and rejected). And as far as I know no related noun is classically attested. I don't think we should resort to an infinitive /gerund unless absolutely necessary-- I think laesio would surely be better than ferire /feriendus.

But I have now had a brainstorm. There is a related medieval noun, ferita, -ae (f). It's in Niermeyer, attested from the twelfth century, meaning "blow" or "stroke", and often paired with plaga.

Why not ferita for "strike"?
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

It is interesting to note what other languages do for strike. The French word is prise, which I believe is like a "hold" or "catch" or a military "prize". Spanish (I think) coins estraic from the corresponding English word (got this from the English-Spanish baeball dictionary at the HoF, a useful resource).

My conclusion from this is that for this particular term, the choice between laesio and ferita (an excellent suggestion, BTW) would be best decided by common usage. As we're not likely to get many centurions to start an intra-legion league, I think we're at a point where others should decide. My solution: Let's set up a separate post explaining out work here and the problem at hand, and get some opinions from other Latinists. This may have the added benefit of drawing more people into this thread. So I'll open up a new thread in the "English to Latin" section.

Work on the recent election has had me distracted, but now I have a little more time for this thread, and should be posting some new ideas soon.
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

1. I never before realized how many baseball terms in English involve the modification of a noun by another noun. I'm having real trouble deciding how to handle these modifying nouns in the Latin. Genitive? Dative? Ablative? Prepositional phrase? This has become such a common problem that I have introduced into the glossary a symbol, (#), to mark such areas of uncertainty. These will need to be cleared before the terms involved can be considered "accepted".

2. I am about to reproduce here the current version of the Pitching Section. It will be noted that I have proposed a number of new terms. The iactus citus digito tertio is not intended as joke, but rather as a description of the way a cutter is thrown, with extra pressure from the long finger. "Pitchout" is hard. I think we need to save ejectio, etc. for other purposes. The current version follows:


Pitching:

pitch (or throw): iactus, -us (m)
to pitch (or to throw): iacere

ball (pitch not a strike): pila, -ae (f)
strike: ?laesio, -onis (f) /ferita, -ae (f) /straica. -ae.

windup: positio suculae (#), To wind up: suculam facere.
set: positio praesto
to stretch: pandiculor, -ari, -atus The stretch: pandculari /pandicuandi.
to kick: calcitro, -are, -avi, -atus. The kick: calx, calcis (f).
to slide-step: labenter gradi; slide-step: gradus labens.


fastball: iactus citus.
tailing /moving fastball: iactus citus movens.
four-seam fastball: iactus citus quattuor suturis (#).
two-seam fastball: iactus citus duobus suturis (#).
cut fastball /cutter: iactus citus digito tertio (#).
breaking ball: iactus declinatus.
curve: iactus curvatus.
hanging curve; iactus curvatus suspensus.
slider: iactus labens.
screwball: iactus recurvatus.
sinker : iactus declivis.
split-finger pitch: iactus digitis separatis (#)
forkball: iactus furcilla (#)
changeup: iactus mutatus.
straight change: iactus mutatus rectus.
circle change: iactus (mutatus) circulo.(#)
three-finger change: iactus mutatus tres digitis.(#)
palmball: iactus (mutatus) palma (#)
knuckleball: iactus unguibus (#).
knuckle curve: iactus unguibus curvatus .(#)

pitchout:

pitch that is
high: altus
low: humilis
in the dirt: in humum
inside: proximus
outside: ultimus

backdoor:
down the middle: in medio

wild pitch: iactus indomitus.

balk: haesitatio, haesitationis (f)

3. While we are on the general subject of pitching, I would like to propose one additional term, or pair of terms, which I suppose should go in the Field of Play Section:

pitcher's plate /rubber: scutula /cummis (iaculatoris).

No (#) here; I'm pretty sure the genitive is what we want for this one.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Iynx dixit:
1. I never before realized how many baseball terms in English involve the modification of a noun by another noun. I'm having real trouble deciding how to handle these modifying nouns in the Latin. Genitive? Dative? Ablative? Prepositional phrase? This has become such a common problem that I have introduced into the glossary a symbol, (#), to mark such areas of uncertainty. These will need to be cleared before the terms involved can be considered "accepted".
Genitive is perhaps best for single-word terms, and I think the only choice when the modifier is a person. Prepositional phrases should be a last resort, the ablative reserved for purely descriptive terms (with an adjective), and while I could accept the dative, unless there's a compelling reason to do it I'd rather stick with the obvious genitive. The thoughts in this paragraph are fairly loose--more my impressions than anything else--and subject to change with the right example. :)

Positio suculae is brilliant (I'm assuming objective genitive); I would not have thought of this, but it describes the motion perfectly.

Regarding the terms for fastball, would iactus citus cum suturibus and iactus citus contra sutures work here? And although a cutter is thrown as you describe (sort of a quickie slider), I thought the "cutting" motion of the pitch is where it got its name. So what about iactus citus divertens? The other pitch names seem OK to me; I'd certainly be able to know what they were if I saw them. The ablative here is the best choice IMO.

For "backdoor", how about a tergo? "pitchout" I agree is tough; iactus diversus[ is my first thought, but I'm not a fan. Finally, I agree with scutula iaculatoris; genitive is best I think.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

"Screen" is a minor word we had skipped previously. Rete is obvious, but I wonder if linum, -i is better (it emphasizes more the thinness of the screen I think), but maybe it's not worth making this distinction.

A few other proposed suggestions for the pitching section:

jactus deverrens - "brushback pitch"
jactus sputo mutatus - "spitball"
angulus, -i, as in laesio tria vocata in angulo ultimo!
 

Cato

Consularis

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A little more fun...translation of Russ Hodges' famous call of the "Shot heard 'round the world"...

Bobbi Thomson adit ut circumagat...duos ex tribus habuerat, simplicem duplicemque, et Billi Cox eum adeo in linea tertiae basis ludit...(Est) Unus exitus, infera (pars) noni (ingressus)...Branca jacit...Bobbi Thomson laesionem vocatam in angulo intimo accipit. Bobbi ad .292 icit. Simplicem duplicemque habuerat et cursum primum Gigantum pila volante ad centralem (agellum) impulit...Brucalin eum (i.e. ludum) quattuor versus duos ducit...Hartung de linea ad tertium it, non sortes temptans. Lockman ad secundum, non nimis magno initio, sed similis vento curret si Thomson eam icit. Branca jacit...Est praepes longa, credo fore--Gigantes vexillum capit! Gigantes vexillum capit! Gigantes vexillum capit! Gigantes vexillum capit! Bobbi Thomson pilam in maenianum imum caveae agelli sinistri icit! Gigantes vexillum capit! Et delirant, delirant, Iiiii-ooooo!

"up there swinging" was tough, and I'm not sure about circumago for "swing". impello seemed most natural for "driving in" a run, but wonder what you think. No clue what to do about .292, so I leave it as-is. Sortes temptans is a personal choice; there are probably other ways to say "not taking any chances". Finally, I don't know if we'd covered this already (didn't see it in the vocab.), but vexillum is rather obvious for "pennant". I'd love to hear your opinion.

Most of this was fairly straightforward, but the exercise clarified for me some of the usage and forced me to think about a few words. Give it a "shot" yourself... :)
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

1. That translation of Hodges' call is fantastic. That's just the sort of thing I was hoping we could achieve.

But there is still a lot to be done.

2. I'll add vexillum to the glossary right after this post.

3. iactus citus cum suturibus and iactus citus contra sutures

a. Can cum mean "with" in the sense of "in the direction of" or "parallel to"? I can't find or think of an authoritative example, but at worst the usage would be an obvious transferrence.

b. But isn't sutura of the First? Cum suturis and contra suturas?

4. You may be right about the origin of "cut fastball". I understood that it was so called because the action was similar to that of a ball with a cut, held by the pitcher with the cut on one side (at one time a popular tactic). But I have no idea where that idea came from, and it may be complete hooey.

Your divertens is certainly better than my third-finger idea-- almost anything would be. Looking at the definitions in Glare, though, I wonder if devertens would not be better?

5. Your a tergo is, I think, a good idea for "backdoor"; we will need to distinguish a backdoor pitch from one thrown behind a batter, but the latter might be described simply as pila post clavatorem iacta, or with some similar locution.

6. Your Iactus diversus makes sense for "pitchout".

7. Iactus deverrens! Absolutely brilliant.

8. The only trouble with iactus sputo mutatus is that we're using mutatus to designate "changes" in the sense of "off-speed pitches". How about iactus sputofer (nominative in apposition) or iactus sputoger? Plain sputofer /sputoger could be taken as "spitter".

9. Angulus proximus and angulus ultimus will be added as soon as I finish this post.

10. I'll put both rete and linum in for now, in green. I think I prefer the former, as the latter makes me think first of "linen".
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Iynx dixit:
a. Can cum mean "with" in the sense of "in the direction of" or "parallel to"? I can't find or think of an authoritative example, but at worst the usage would be an obvious transferrence.

b. But isn't sutura of the First? Cum suturis and contra suturas?
Agree on sutura, -ae; these should have the forms you suggest.

I also have difficulty finding a definitive cite for cum that fits the meaning here. It seems natural enough, and other than possibly juxta or the more obscure iuxtim I can't really think of a better word (unless we get very pedantic and use something like parallelus).
Your divertens is certainly better than my third-finger idea-- almost anything would be. Looking at the definitions in Glare, though, I wonder if devertens would not be better?
Devertens is perhaps the word I should have typed. I am lucky that the OLD has the following under the entry for diverto: "See also DEVERTO, with which there is some confusion in MSS. and texts." So I'm apparently not the first. :)
8. The only trouble with iactus sputo mutatus is that we're using mutatus to designate "changes" in the sense of "off-speed pitches". How about iactus sputofer (nominative in apposition) or iactus sputoger? Plain sputofer /sputoger could be taken as "spitter".
sputofer is inspired; I can imagine a Roman batter complaining about a suspicious pitch: "Illa pila non possit umidior si eam in aqueductu volvas!"
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

Cato's iactus deverrens for "brushback pitch" makes me think about "to sweep", as a series, or an opposing team; I suppose that deverro is the verb we want for that too?

And what about "a sweep"? Do we need this time to resort to the infinitive + the gerund?

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I am called away, and it may be some time before I can get back to this; when I do I hope to begin pulling glossary terms one by one out of that wonderful translation of the Hodges' call.
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

I return, after an overnight trip to a place on the Canadian border.

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1. I hate to begin an analysis of that wonderful translation by carping about a minor grammatical point. But since Gigantes is plural, ought one not to say

Gigantes vexillum capiunt!

?
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

2. Circumagere seems natural for "to swing".

3. ...et Billi Cox eum adeo in linea tertiae basis ludit...

I think the hard parts here are

a. "right on the third base line". Despite the literal meaning of the English, I suppose that Cox had both feet in fair ground, and I think that your adeo probably is a better choice than say, accurate, though I think either could have been used.

b. In linea tertiae basis . The problem here is the case thing again. You seem to have settled on genitive for this one, and that's fine with me.

4. Now that you've come up with it, cursum impellere seems obvious for "to drive in a run". As a corollary, I suppose that "RBI" will be cursus impulsus?

5. Can we use ducere to mean "to be ahead"? Yes, I think so.

6. Non sortes temptans. Beautiful! Good translation involves knowing when not to be literal.

7. Capere: I raised the question of verb-number in my last post. I do agree that this is the verb to use for winning a pennant. I think it could be extended to other contexts as well. Even in English, after all, we sometimes speak of "taking" a game or a series. But in those other contexts I do think that other locutions might also be admitted, as for example

Gigantes in ludo vicerunt.
Gigantes Elusores vicerunt.
 

Cato

Consularis

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Iynx dixit:
I return, after an overnight trip to a place on the Canadian border.

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1. I hate to begin an analysis of that wonderful translation by carping about a minor grammatical point. But since Gigantes is plural, ought one not to say

Gigantes vexillum capiunt!
Yikes, absolutely; here in the most famous part of the call, I make a freshman error!
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

I here give the current version of the Batting Section:

G. Batting /Clavare:


(Batting) order /lineup: ordo, ordinis (m) (clavatorum).

To bat out of order: extra ordinem clavare.
Proper batter: clavator rectus.
Improper batter: clavator non rectus /clavator pravus.


To come (up) to bat: adeo, adiri, adii or adivi, aditus
Trip to the plate: aditus, -us (m).

stance: status, -us (m).
Open stance: status apertus.
Closed stance: status clausus.
Crouched stance: status subsidens. To hit from a crouch: ?subsidenter clavare /e subsidendo clavare?.
Up in the box: in parte priori finium.
Back in the box: in parte posteriori finium.
Away from the plate: procul scutulam.
Crowding the plate: scutulam stipans.

choke up: clavam contrahere (contraho, -here (III), contraxi, contractus).

shorten one's swing: Circumactum contrahere (contraho, -here (III), contraxi, contractus).


swing: circumactus, -us (m).

To swing (the bat): (clavam) circumago, -agere (III), -egi, -actus.

hit: ictus, -us (m). To hit the ball: pilam icere (ico, icere (III), ici, ictus).

bunt: pulsus, -us (m). To bunt = pello, pellere, pepuli, pulsus ]

sacrifice bunt: pulsus sacrificialis
bunt for a hit: pulsus pro ictu


squeeze play:
suicide squeeze:
safety squeeze:


fair ball: pila de fas.
foul ball: pila de nefas.
foul tip: pila (de nefas) stricta. To tip the ball = pilam stringere (stringo, stringere (III) strinxi, strictus).

ground ball: pila in solo.
bounding ball: pila saliens
line drive: praepes, praepetis (f) or pila praepetis
fly ball: pila volans
sacrifice fly: pila volans sacrificialis .

infield fly: pila volans inagello (#).

Infield hit: ictus intra inagellum.
Texas Leaguer: ictus medianus.
(Baltimore) chop: resilire, resaliendi (Baltimorensis) (resilio, resilire, resilui or resilii, resultum).
Flare /blooper /ducksnort:(?parvum) sternumentum anatis/ (parvum) sternere (III) (sternendi) anatis?


single: (ictus) simplex.
double: (ictus) duplex.
triple: (ictus) triplex.
home run: cursus domus.

walk /base on balls: ambulatio, -onis (f) /[i]basis pilis[/i](#).
intentional walk: ambulatio de industria.

hit batsman: clavator ictus (a iaculatore)

A few thoughts:

1. Some of my ideas for "squeeze play" are probably more apt for "force play". At this point we need terms for both.

2. There ought to be a noun for "crouch"-- but I don't know one.

3. My locution for "flare" /"blooper" was an act of desperation. Surely we can do better?

4. Pila volans inagello: here is an example of a situation in which I feel (albeit very uncertainly) that the modifying noun ought to be in the dative-- inagello. Other thoughts?
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

I'm afraid I've been having second thoughts about two terms that we'd pretty much settled on:

1. "Backdoor". Rather than a tergo, how about per posticum?

2. "Pitchout": How about exursio or excursus? Either of these combines the idea of "a going out", the idea of protrusion or extension, the idea of digression (in this case from the task of retiring the batter) and the idea of a military sortie.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

With the exceptions below, I think we can agree on all these terms; they seem rather straightforward.
Iynx dixit:
1. Some of my ideas for "squeeze play" are probably more apt for "force play". At this point we need terms for both.
In thinking about a "squeeze play" (a term also used in the card game Bridge), the idea is that the defense is trapped into guarding two things when--because of the nature of the play--they only have the resources for one.

I think a direct translation--e.g. lusus constrictus/lusu tribulatus--is wrong. Lusus angustiarum would be nearly perfect if we weren't already using this for a rundown; what about lusus biceps? "Suicide/safety squeeze play" would be lusus biceps lethalis and lusus biceps tutus.

Regarding a force play/force-out, there are two obvious choices: lusus compellens/exitus compulsus and lusus coagens/exitus coactus. I prefer the second for brevity's sake, though the first is more like the "force" of rule/law, which I believe more accurately conveys the idea of the out.
2. There ought to be a noun for "crouch"-- but I don't know one.
Nor do I; subsideo and words derived from it are probably the best we can do.
3. My locution for "flare" /"blooper" was an act of desperation. Surely we can do better?
These words themselves are so idionmatic (particularly "duck snort", one I can't stand--but then again I think Ken Harrelson coined this, and I don't like the White Sox or their announcers), and they depend on a cultural knowledge for their meaning, that we have to dive into Roman culture to come up with a suitable equivalent.

I'm going to suggest catapulta laxa or fundibulum laxum, the idea being that a catapult not very tightly wound would product the kind of looping-but-well-placed fly ball described by the English term "blooper".
4. Pila volans inagello: here is an example of a situation in which I feel (albeit very uncertainly) that the modifying noun ought to be in the dative-- inagello. Other thoughts?
This usage obviously personifies the "infield" so that it is an ethical dative/dative of reference. I see no problem with this, as we've already designated inagellus to refer both to the locum and lusitores locum obtinentes.
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

1. On the squeeze: I may be missing some of your meaning because I don't play bridge. But I don't see the squeeze as being particularly "bicipital"-- that is, as presenting a dilemma to the defense-- more than, or even as much as, many another bunt.

Part of the reason that this term is difficult to translate is that it has never been clear (at least to me) exactly who is supposed to be squeezing what. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never really thought about that before. My best guess is that the term sees the play as a way to "squeeze out" (= "eke out") a run.

I'm putting the biceps idea into the glossary, not because I think its great, but because it is better than anything I've been able to come up with.

2. I do very much like your coactus for "forced", even though I have always seen a runner as "forced" not so much by the rules (though I admit the validity of that perspective) as by the runner(s) coming behind him.

3. I also like the way your catapulta laxa /fundibalum laxum captures the silliness of some the English terms. So a little blooper might be pila ab catapulto laxa (iacta).
 
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