How to scan the 5th line of Catullus 101?

Cornicula

New Member
Quandōquidem fortūna mihi tete abstulit ipsum.

Is the 'i' in quandoquidem actually long contrary to what I read on Wiktionary and elsewhere?
 

Maximus Aemilius

New Member
I'm a novice so disregard my opinion if anyone contradicts it, but I reckon the o in Quando is short, sometimes poets make final Os short for some reason and quando-quidem is a compound of two words.
 

Cornicula

New Member
I'm a novice so disregard my opinion if anyone contradicts it, but I reckon the o in Quando is short, sometimes poets make final Os short for some reason and quando-quidem is a compound of two words.
I see how that works, but I really believe it's long; well, it's normally long.
 

Serenus

Civis Illustris
I see how that works, but I really believe it's long; well, it's normally long.
It is short, while the -i of mihi is long:

Quandŏquĭ|dem for|tūna mi|hī tē|t(ē) abstulit | ipsum.​

Quandō, in this compound or on its own, can have a short -o. Some more examples:

MEN. Līber(em) ego tē? | MESS. Vērum, quandŏqui|d(em), ere, tē servā|vī. MEN. Quid est? (Plautus, trochaic septenarius)​
Quandŏquĭdem penetrant in eum contāgia morbī. (Lucretius, dactylic hexameter)​
Vēr(um) age, quandŏquĭdem fātīs urgētur acerbīs. (Vergil, dactylic hexameter)​
Quandŏquĭd(em) et il|lī peccant, quōs | minimē putēs, (Phaedrus, iambic senarius)​
Dīc mihi crās istud, Postume, quandŏ vĕnit? (Martial, dactylic pentameter)​
Quandŏ, prō Tītān, | ubi quō sub axe (Seneca the Younger, Horatian Sapphic)​
Aliquandŏ siti|ēns ūnus dē | custōdibus (Phaedrus, iambic senarius)​

In fact, I wonder whether quandōquidem with a long -ō- is attested at all... Maybe there's a line of Plautus or two with it. You can compare it with "nesciōquis", which is generally nesciŏquis with a short -ŏ- as well. (I similarly wonder whether nesciōquis is attested...)
 
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Cornicula

New Member
Thank you for this. I had worked out how it would scan of if the “o” were short but couldn’t figure out if it was supposed to be. I could see no other way, but I was frustrated. Is there a source besides Wiktionary and L&S that you use to find vowel quantity, or do you have to just go look directly in the Roman verses themselves?
 

Maximus Aemilius

New Member
Thank you for this. I had worked out how it would scan of if the “o” were short but couldn’t figure out if it was supposed to be. I could see no other way, but I was frustrated. Is there a source besides Wiktionary and L&S that you use to find vowel quantity, or do you have to just go look directly in the Roman verses themselves?
Wiktionary is good, I use https://logeion.uchicago.edu/lexidium myself.
This thing with o is a particularity, aside from that and mihi/tibi/sibi which can have either long or short final i, those are the only times I can think of where it wouldnt scan as a dictionary says.
 

Serenus

Civis Illustris
Thank you for this. I had worked out how it would scan of if the “o” were short but couldn’t figure out if it was supposed to be. I could see no other way, but I was frustrated. Is there a source besides Wiktionary and L&S that you use to find vowel quantity, or do you have to just go look directly in the Roman verses themselves?
I know a bit about how Proto-Indo-European became Latin, so I also like to check what etymology Wiktionary or De Vaan (in his etymological dictionary) give. Plus De Vaan also gives good vowel lengths in it.

It is useful to go down one level to primary resources, looking for examples though (as I did above), especially when having arguments with people. Being able to parse trochaic and iambic verse is very useful for this purpose. Timothy Moore's Meters of Roman Comedy is very useful to help you know what metre is used in a specific line of Plautus or Terence in particular. Pedecerto.eu also has a large database of hexameter and pentameter, which is very useful (but unfortunately limited to what hexameter and pentameter can express; it also doesn't let you search specific words by period, and the database has a LOT of Late Latin).

The L&S is bad for vowel quantity by the way, because it often uses a macron before Cr consonant clusters regardless of the length of the vowel, plus it confuses people who know less about Latin phonology with its use of macrons before geminate -j- too (măior and Trŏia have a short a and o, but the L&S shows them as māior, Trōia, to account for the geminate -j-). In these cases, you generally have to check another source. I prefer to check the Gaffiot 2016 and the Latin-Nederlands dictionaries on Logeion much better. The L&S also confuses people with its convention to not mark basic endings by default (-us is assumed to be short, cf. tellūs, but -es is assumed to be long, cf. mīlĕs, but people using the L&S often don't know the conventions used).
 
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