How would a Latin-trained paladin turn undead?

opusaug

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I read the rules page. You want context? LOL, I'll give you context.... ;)

Unlike everyone else in my family, I was educated entirely in public school, and have never had a day of Latin instruction. Especially being Catholic, I've always thought I've been a step behind in that regard, and have wished to have had at least some knowledge of the language. I've fumbled through 20 years of adulthood without it, but a few weeks ago I was inspired to stop procrastinating and I picked up a copy of Wheelock's at the bookstore.

Darned if I hadn't gotten just far enough to be dangerous, when I find a situation where I wish I was farther along. Switching from procrastination to impatience, I come looking for help.

I'm buying an electronic book reader for a bookish friend for his birthday, and the manufacturer offers engraving to personalize your device. Since there's room for two lines, the top will of course be his name, and I thought the bottom should be a message of some sort. I thought for a while, and no matter what else I try to think of, my mind returns to an obvious, if embarrassing, choice.

When we were teenagers, the friend and I would play pen & paper RPGs (e.g. D&D). My friend would almost always play paladins, and would make short work of any undead I'd send his way by using his undead-turning ability and an incredible run of luck on die rolls. During one especially fun session, he finally failed a roll. Unflustered, he pulled out a flaming, magic sword he'd picked up along the way, made another run of insanely lucky rolls, and escaped all harm. I threw my hands up in the air and said, "I guess if you can't turn 'em, you burn 'em!"

We laughed for about an hour on that one line, and ever since - regardless of what we're doing, which nowadays is almost never related to D&D - we part ways repeating that phrase; me starting with "If you can't turn 'em..." and he ending with "Burn 'em!".

So, that's what I want to put on my friend's book reader. But aware that this could be a strange thing to have to explain to curious eyes in a 21st century airport (especially nowadays!) I thought it would be a neat joke to put the essence of the phrase into Latin. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I'm anal and would like the grammar not to suck totally.

Wheelock's in hand, here's what I think most simply captures the concept in Latin:

Nisi vertis - incendere!

Roughly:

"If you don't make (them) turn and flee - set fire (to them)!"

As I see it, the end is the easy part. incendere is the present active imperative of incendo ("to set on fire").

I'm fuzzy if I'm using nisi correctly, but vertis is the second person singular of the third conjugation verb verto ("to turn around", but according to Whitaker, it ironically also means "to destroy" which is pretty close to the idea).

Thanks for any advice.
 

opusaug

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Hmmn. Clearer eyes in the morning notice that the verb reverto "to turn away" might be a better choice. Now I'm wondering if I'm anywhere in the ballpark... back to the books! :D

Thanks again for any suggestions.
 

Iohannes Aurum

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The first half is correct, but the singular active imperative for incendo is incende; to form singular active imperatives, take the infinitive and remove -re

Incendere is passive imperative and infinitive

Did you read Chapter 8 of Wheelock's?
 
 

cinefactus

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What about depellere?

My suggestion would be something like:

Si depellere defeceris, incendas
 

scrabulista

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The expression "turn or burn" also has the meaning "turn (mend thy ways, convert, etc.) or burn (in hell)." I suppose it's more of a new line Protestant expression than a Catholic one....I rather like revertere.

Just to be clear, when an undead D&D character is "turned," does it cease to be undead (and rejoin the living), or does it shrivel up into dust as Christopher Lee's Dracula did so many times?
 

opusaug

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Iohannes Aurum dixit:
Did you read Chapter 8 of Wheelock's?
Lordy, I haven't had the book for long, I've barely scratched Chapter 2. If I'd known homework was due, I'd have crammed. :oops:

scrabblehack dixit:
The expression "turn or burn" also has the meaning "turn (mend thy ways, convert, etc.) or burn (in hell)." I suppose it's more of a new line Protestant expression than a Catholic one....I rather like revertere.
Heh, I've never heard that one - though it does add a neat perspective. I guess you guys were using that line on us, and not the other way 'round. 8)

scrabblehack dixit:
Just to be clear, when an undead D&D character is "turned," does it cease to be undead (and rejoin the living), or does it shrivel up into dust as Christopher Lee's Dracula did so many times?
The character doing the "turning" can either fail for no effect, succeed wildly causing the undead creature to be permanently destroyed (and yes, I always imagined a "dust-like" effect myself), or most commonly something in between: causing the undead to temporarily flee the paladin's (or cleric's) awe-inspiring holiness. In that last case, you suspect the holy water was properly sprinkled, the cross was waved to good effect, etc.

That "flee" effect was why I thought "verto" would be the most appropriate, because somewhere I thought I saw an alternate denotation of "to make (an enemy) turn and flee". But for the life of me, I can't find the reference now.

Thanks for the analysis, everyone! I'll know where to return for questions as I continue with Wheelock's. Hopefully, with more classical and less morbid questions. :mrgreen:
 

opusaug

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Iohannes Aurum dixit:
The first half is correct, but the singular active imperative for incendo is incende; to form singular active imperatives, take the infinitive and remove -re

Incendere is passive imperative and infinitive
Oh, I see that now. I got my imperative mixed up with my infinitive. Duh.

But now that that's straight, Cinefactus' suggestion is a bit confusing to me.

Cinefactus dixit:
Si depellere defeceris, incendas
Doesn't incendas here basically mean, "you are igniting"? We're conjugating incendo as the present active indicative instead of the singular active imperative, right? Shouldn't we be commanding the paladin what to do instead of explaining to him what he is causing to happen? I don't see any other conjugation that explains the usage.
 

deudeditus

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incendas is subjuncive (present active subjuncive) because incendere is a 3rd conjugation verb. I'm not good at explaining things, but it makes sense. haha I think it has something to do with the si. if you used si with the indicative, it would imply that you were likely to fail to 'turn' them. ... Anyway, I think so. If I'm too wrong I'll be corrected. :lol:

Other than that, I think you can use the subjunctive in an imperative sense. Like negative commands in spanish. Tomar is spanish for 'to take,' (more or less) so the imperative is toma, but the negative command uses the subjunctive, which is no tomes. It's not exactly similar with latin, but you get what I'm trying to say.
 
 

cinefactus

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opusaug dixit:
Doesn't incendas here basically mean, "you are igniting"?.
You are igniting would be incendis. The subjunctive is a different way of expressing a command.
 

opusaug

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deudeditus dixit:
incendas is subjuncive (present active subjuncive) because incendere is a 3rd conjugation verb.
Cinefactus dixit:
You are igniting would be incendis. The subjunctive is a different way of expressing a command.
I see it now. ugh, I have so much to learn. :( Thanks for the clarification.

Bitmap dixit:
Paladin ... what a boring choice
In pen & paper RPG? I think not, as long as the DM is worth his salt, making the player play out the part to the hilt and pay for every slip in ethics. (And thank you very much, yours truly was the DM.) Besides which, at the time in question we were under Unearthed Arcana (sorta AD&D 1.5 rules), so paladin was a sub-class of the now-defunct cavalier. I made sure he had to be noble as well as pure. My friend was a certified ham in his acting, so the result was high camp. The other players were disgusted by the constant lecturing, but it was never boring.
 

deudeditus

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opusaug dixit:
I see it now. ugh, I have so much to learn. :( Thanks for the clarification.
conuerte frontem contractum. :) omnes discimus.
 
 

Matthaeus

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The present subjunctive may be used to express milder commands than the regular imperative, e.g. Taceas (may you be quiet) vs. Tace! (shut up!)
 
B

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Cinefactus dixit:
Si depellere defeceris, incendas
I've never seen deficere with an infinitive. Does that really exist?

why hasn't anyone suggested something simple like (eos) nisi vertere (/depellere) potes, incende
 
 

cinefactus

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Bitmap dixit:
I've never seen deficere with an infinitive. Does that really exist?
A good point, which I hadn't thought of ;)

I don't have my dictionary with me, but I must confess that I can't find one in either the Latin Library or the Vulgate...
 
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