Huic testes sedi p(er)duc si uis t(ibi) credi .

[Martinus]

Dionysius: Huic testes sedi p(er)duc si uis t(ibi) credi .
Man 1: Judex iust(us) si marca(m) soluat hic eris
Man 2: Eris pond(us) ego q(uo)d petit iste nego

This conversation is part of a miniature in the Vie de Saint Denis (BnF, ms. fr. 2090, fol. 35v).

I have translated the second and third line thus:

Man 1: You will be a just judge if you solve this reprisal
Man 2: You will be an authority, but that which he requests I deny.

But Dionysius' speech eludes me. Any help will be much appreciated!

 

[Westcott]

In line 1 it looks to me like p[ro]duc not p[er]duc.
In line 2 it is hic not hoc, which I read as "here" rather than "this". If it was meant to be "this", and to qualify marcam, it would have to be hanc.
In line 2 it is solvat not solvas. I would translate si marcam solvat hic as "if he pays a mark here". (A mark was an amount of money in some countries, whether in France I do not know.) But then we have a superfluous eris. Could it be, "if he pays a mark, will you be here"?
In line 3, as it is quod petit, I would have expected istud nego.
I can't make enough sense of it to offer a translation.

 

[Martinus]

Thanks, Westcott, also for pointing out the transcription errors (fully agree with your corrections!)
Regarding marcam, this can also mean "right of reprisal", according to the Database of Medieval Latin from British Sources. Which makes more sense in this context than to more common meaning of "mark" I believe.
As to line 1, this is my reading (whether one expands pduc to perduc or produc doesn't make much difference I think):
"Present the witnesses to this chair if you wish to be trusted."
Any thoughts? Thanks again!

 

[cinefactus]

It is almost certainly related to something in the text. What does this chapter of the Vie de Saint Denis relate to?

 

[Martinus]

Alas, no. The passage that relates to the image is:

And so, with those things completed for which he had set out for Heliopolis, Dionysius then happily returned and assumed charge of the hilltop/citadel of the whole city of Athens, and presiding over the court of the Areopagus, he oversaw the government of all civil and public affairs;

To me it looks like the above is a dialogue composed specifically for the miniature, to suggest a generic court scene.

 

[cinefactus]

How about:
bring witnesses to this chair if you wish to be believed

 

[Martinus]

Sounds good to me.
Still having troubles with line 2, especially after finding that I had left out an extra "eris":

Judex iust(us) eris si marca(m) soluat hic eris

You will be a just judge if this solves the reprisal,...you will?

 

[cinefactus]

what if it were
iudex iustus eris si marcam solvat hic eius
You will be a just judge if he pays his mark

 

[Westcott]

It can't be eius because (1) there are only two pen strokes between the e and the s, and (2) each line is a rhyming couplet;
sedi - credi, eris - eris, ego - nego.

 

[Westcott]

Perhaps the man who drew the pictures wasn't very good at Latin.

 

[cinefactus]

Another thought: What about:
si marcam solvat hīc eus

 

[Martinus]

Perhaps the man who drew the pictures wasn't very good at Latin.

The scribal hand is identical to the main text of the manuscript. Maybe the Latin is not on Ciceronian standard, but it usually makes sense even if it is occasionally clunky and confusing.

It can't be eius because (1) there are only two pen strokes between the e and the s, and (2) each line is a rhyming couplet;
sedi - credi, eris - eris, ego - nego.

Ha, I hadn't realized that. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[cinefactus]

The text, however will be copied, but the speech bubbles were quite possibly made up by the scribe himself.

 

[Martinus]

The text, however will be copied, but the speech bubbles were quite possibly made up by the scribe himself.

Generally yes, but not in this case. The text draws one some earlier versions of the Saint Denis legend, but about 2/3 of it is original. And this manuscript is the autograph. Presumably the making of the miniatures with its inscriptions were strictly supervised.

 

[Westcott]

Regarding post 12, the Latin can't be that good if we can't understand it. And there are enough examples of pornographic illuminations and marginalia to suggest that supervision wasn't that strict!

In line 1, why would you say, "Produce witnesses to this chair if I have believed your meaning." Something along the lines of "if you want me to believe your meaning" would make more sense. I know the writer wanted a rhyme, but meaning should take priority. I have assumed here that vis means meaning, case, argument. But if it is to be the object of the verb "I believe / have believed" it should be vim, not vis.

In line 3, I have already pointed out that we have iste where we would expect istud.

The two people on the left are pointing at the man on the right. He is told to produce witnesses, and the suggestion is made that he might pay a mark for a favourable judgment. So why is it he who denies someone else's request?

 

[Martinus]

Well, that depends on the specific circumstances of a manuscript and its readership. In this case, it is made by the monks of Saint-Denis at Paris for King Philip IV. It is difficult to imagine a more high stakes commission, and the Dionysian monks are not exactly known for their humor, but represent the learned elite at the French court--that's why to explain the incoherence of the Latin with the ignorance of the author/scribe is only a last resort to me. But, as you pointed out, he clearly struggling to rhyme the speech while only having in minusculespace to work with

Wait, I don't think I said "have believed"? I wrote "Present the witnesses to this chair if you wish to be trusted ['want to be believed' may be better though]."

As to iste/istud, why not: You will be the authority, but I deny what this one request.

 

[Westcott]

Sorry, the "I have believed" was my translation, as was vis as a noun meaning "argument". I see now that vis is "you wish" and credi is the passive infinite, so I agree your translation of line 1. I also agree line 3, "I deny that which this person seeks."

I think we are getting somewhere.

 

[Martinus]

We are, we are. I think line 1 and 3 are good now.
For line 2, I have the following proposition:

You will be a just judge if he here pays back the money/mark

 

[cinefactus]

I would have thought: if he pays back the mark here
It is assuming, however, that the author has used eus instead of is.

 

[Martinus]

I am actually sure that it reads "eris". There is a prototype of that manuscript and the miniature, which, though perhaps not 100% conclusive, at least excludes the possibility of eus. As Westcott had pointed out, the second "eris" might have just been for achieving, if however not very skillfully, a rhyming couplet. I tend to think that it would justified to ignore it.

As to the third line, I am thinking to translate hic as "this man here" would correspond with the pointing gesture of the man.