Improve Latin Composition?

Terraphore

Member

Location:
Anglia
I've been reading bits and pieces of Latin literature for a while now, but, I've recently tried to write in Latin and found this really tricky!

I guess learning the genders of nouns (which I've so far neglected) is fundamental to composition, but how could I begin to write poetry? Would that rely largely on a strong knowledge of pronunciation and vowel lengths, et cetera, to have any hope of sticking to a meter? What about writing idiomatically? I've searched around for helpful resources but haven't come across anything recent...

Except for the tattoo market, there doesn't seem to be much practical use for composition. Just thought it might be fun to do, and aid my understanding of literature.

Any suggestions?
 

MaiorMinore

New Member

You see, I'm the opposite. I do well when it comes to composition but I'm not that good at translating literature. I would recommend North and Hillard's Latin Prose and Composition. That's what I used this year in my Independent Study in Latin. Basically, the key to Latin Composition is to do a lot of it.
 

Terraphore

Member

Location:
Anglia
Wow, Latin Prose and Composition looks like a gem of a book - and one that's free online! Thanks!

It makes me wonder whether someone ought to create a list of online Latin resources such as this, if there isn't one already.
 

Nikolaos

schmikolaos

  • Censor

Location:
Kitami, Hokkaido, Japan

Cambrinus

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Anglia
That would be North and Hillard's Latin Prose Composition. That is, the the Composition of Latin Prose. It is probably the best book, but you would need a little help as soon as you get about 30 or 40 pages into it. Composing poetry is, believe me, of an entirely different order of difficulty!
 

Adrian

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

As for idiomatical Latin, there are plenty of handbooks such as Latin Phrase-book by Meissner, Locutionum Latinarum Thesaurus (in German) by Probst, or A Dictionary of Latin Phrases by Robertson.
IMO, as far as latin prose composition is considered (aspect of detail and comprehensive analysis of vocabulary; in special regard to demonstrating diffierences in semantics and accurate appliance in prose composition) Robertson, CCELD, Probst, Meissner and Ramshorn have the upperhand over OLD, L&S and Gaffiot (no offence to OLD ) Not to mention Ludwig Ramshorn's Lateinischen Synonymik : nach Gardin-Dumesnil's Synonymes latins neu bearbeitet und vermehrt Vol 1 +2 (beats all standard "vocabulary type" dictionaries). IMO as far as latin prose composition is considered "Dictionaries of latin synonyms" are more practical and useful than standard "vocabulary type dictionaries".
 

Nesrad

Member

Experience has shown me that the best composition textbook available is Bradley's Arnold. It is more comprehensive than North and Hillard and spends more time on idiom. North and Hillard seems to be more concerned with using composition as a tool for learning Latin.​
Unfortunately, the current edition of Bradley's Arnold (edited by Mountford in the 1930s) is still under copyright.​
 

Aurifex

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

  • Patronus

Location:
England
IMO, as far as latin prose composition is considered (aspect of detail and comprehensive analysis of vocabulary; in special regard to demonstrating diffierences in semantics and accurate appliance in prose composition) Robertson, CCELD, Probst, Meissner and Ramshorn have the upperhand over OLD, L&S and Gaffiot (no offence to OLD ) Not to mention Ludwig Ramshorn's Lateinischen Synonymik : nach Gardin-Dumesnil's Synonymes latins neu bearbeitet und vermehrt Vol 1 +2 (beats all standard "vocabulary type" dictionaries). IMO as far as latin prose composition is considered "Dictionaries of latin synonyms" are more practical and useful than standard "vocabulary type dictionaries".
If prose composition were a merely mechanical exercise that involved choosing the nearest equivalent word or phrase for every word or phrase that presents itself to you in the English and stringing these together to make Latin, then the books you cite would probably be of more immediate use to you.

But things are a bit more complex than this. The primary aid to prose composition is familiarising yourself directly with the Latin writers whose prose you aspire to imitate. As part of that familiarisation you will consult L&S, OLD et al. ceaselessly, in order to acquire a fuller understanding about the range of meanings possessed by any given word and how that meaning may change over time. This task of reading and assimilating is more time-consuming than consulting phrase-books etc., but in the long run will give you a much firmer foundation for prose composition.

You may be able to see now that OLD, L&S et al. are ultimately of far more value to you than the books you cite as being more practical and useful.
 

Nesrad

Member

I agree completely with Aurifex about becoming immersed in the authors. It's the only way to become fluent in Latin. It's also very hard and time-consuming. I also agree that a good dictionary with many examples will help more than any other tool. But there is great value in using a composition textbook because it will give you tips that you might not notice while reading. An example, to translate "he said that he would not return," it would not be proper Latin to write: "Dixit se non rediturum esse," but rather "Negavit se rediturum esse." I did not realize this until it was explicitly shown to me in a textbook.

I wish I had more occasions to compose Latin. There's the Grex Latine Loquentium, but the problem is having something to write about. Most of the posts there are really boring. It would be interesting to write for Ephemeris, but I can't stand their terribly ugly site, and it's so amateurish. Sometimes there are no new articles for weeks on end. I would like to see something like Wikinews in Latin, where anyone could write and be corrected by others or have his articles removed by community consensus if his Latin is too poor.
 

Adrian

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

I agree completely with Aurifex about becoming immersed in the authors. It's the only way to become fluent in Latin. It's also very hard and time-consuming. I also agree that a good dictionary with many examples will help more than any other tool. But there is great value in using a composition textbook because it will give you tips that you might not notice while reading. An example, to translate "he said that he would not return," it would not be proper Latin to write: "Dixit se non rediturum esse," but rather "Negavit se rediturum esse." I did not realize this until it was explicitly shown to me in a textbook.
Amice, I am not talking about "reading latin" but "latin prose composition" aspect. Dictionaries of latin synonysm and latin phrase books contain a lot of exemplary sentences from classic authors; they provide comprehensive information on semantic differences between words that appear "very similar in meaning"; they also provide information which vocabulary should be used/ should not be used when composing certain phrase.

A tiny example:
Doderlein (Here is the excerpt from entry "faith" - there is too much for me to rewrite fromt the book so I had to shorten it):
Fides; Fidelitas; Fiducia; Confidentia; Audacia; Audentia. 1. Fides and fidelitas mean the fidelity which a man himself observes towards others; fides, in a more general sense, like πίστις, the keeping of one’s word and assurance from conscientiousness, together with the reliance of others upon us as springing from this quality, the credit we possess; fidelitas denotes, in a more special sense, like πιστότης, the faithful adherence to persons to whom we have once devoted ourselves; whereas fiducia and confidentia denote the trust we place in others; fiducia, the laudable trust in things, in which we actually can trust, which is allied to the courage of trusting in ourselves, in opp. to timor; Cic. Div. ii. 31. Plin. Ep. v. 17, like θάρσος; but confidentia denotes a blamable blind trust, particularly in one’s own strength, in opp. to foresight and discretion, and which converts spirit into presumption, like θράσος. 5. Fiducia and confidentia have their foundation in trusting to the prosperous issue of anything; audacia and audentia, in the contempt of danger; audacia sometimes means a laudable boldness, as a word of higher import than fiducia; sometimes a blamable boldness, as a civil term for temeritas, like τόλμα; but audentia is always a laudable spirit of enterprise. Juven. xiii. 108. Quum magna malæ superest audacia causæ, creditur a multis fiducia. Sen. Ep. 87. Quæ bona sunt, fiduciam faciunt, divitiæ audaciam. (v. 256.)
[...]
446. Fides, Fidelitas; Fidus, Fidelis; Fidentia, Fiducia, Confidentia.
Fides, properly, promise; the honesty in promises and contracts or agreements, if we keep them honestly and conscientiously; and the belief in the
truth of a thing, the holding ourselves convinced of its certainty: Fides est dictorum conventorumque constantia et veritas. Cic. Fidem res habuit. Ovid., it was believed, the thing found belief. Fidelitas , faithfulness, conscientiousness in the fulfilment of one’s duties and calling: Vita mea fideli tate amicorum conservata est. Cic.— Fidus, trustworthy, to be relied upon: Canum fida custodia. Fidelis , faithful, who keeps faith, in whom you may confide : Servi animo fideli in dominum. Cic. — Fidentia, the being confident, self-reliance, the being of good cheer, opp. metus: Fidentia est, per quam magnis et honestis in rebus multum ipse animus in se fiucia certa cum spe collocavit. Cic. Fiducia, confidence : Non modo spem tibi, sed prope certam fiduciam salutis praecebet. Liv. In law language, fiducia signifies the pledge or security for fulfilment of payment, which the creditor receives from the debtor; further, a sale on condition of being permitted to buy back, and the necessary contract respecting the transaction: Qui fiduciam accepit, debet praeslare fidem. Cic. Confidentia, a faulty confidence, boldness, temerity: Videte, quo vultu, qua confident ia dicant; tum inlelligetis, qua religions dicant. Cic. [...]

Ramshorn is even more precise - 10 pages of detail analysis of word "faith".
And this is just the vocabulary analysis, then comes Probst and Meissner - Meissner 10 pages of prose compositional expressions and phrases related to "faith", Probst - about 20 pages.

EDIT:
IMO a win-win soultion is CCELD and Robertson - they serves both as a good "vocabulary dictionary" and "prose composition vocabulary"
 

Nesrad

Member

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to reading to become fluent in writing Latin. There is no other way, regardless of the number and quality of your tools.
 

Adrian

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to reading to become fluent in writing Latin. There is no other way, regardless of the number and quality of your tools.
I am aware of reading latin aspect. I also try to read latin texts (I usually try to purchase exemplars with detail comments about grammatical constructions and vocabulary used by the author- e.g. CUP, Oxford University series. I can assure you that I am not an ignorant person who diminishes the role of reading latin as a mean of developing knowledge on certain expressions or phrases.
From my very first post, I pointed out that in aspect of "latin prose composition" (art of composing concise, elegant and vocabulary-accurate sentences), books I metioned are a very useful tool, and in aspect of understanding core semantic differences between certain words and rules of applying them in a sentence they turn out more comprehensive than standard vocabulary dictionaries (simply because this is their main function - to provide comprehensive information about detail semantics of certain word and information when it is acceptable to use it in a sentence and when not). As far as elegant and concise "phrase constructions" are considered - I usually consult
1) Bradley's Arnold Latin prose composition
2) Eleanor Dickey, Anna Chahoud, Colloquial and Literary Latin
3) James Clackson, A Companion To the Latin Language
4) Michael Von Albrecht - Cicero's Style, A Synopsis
 
Top