"in its own right"

Michael Zwingli

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How might this be stated in Latin, as in the English sentence "I do not appreciate a football game in it's own right, but rather for the time with friends that it affords me"?
 

Pacifica

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You could simply use a form of ipse.
 

Pacifica

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No, I mean in agreement with whatever it is that you don't appreciate (or whatever) in its own right. E.g. ipse ludus me non delectat, sed... = "the game itself (= in its own right) doesn't delight me, but..."
 

Michael Zwingli

Active Member

No, I mean in agreement with whatever it is that you don't appreciate (or whatever) in its own right. E.g. ipse ludus me non delectat, sed... = "the game itself (= in its own right) doesn't delight me, but..."
Ah, I see! So, if one wanted to refer to "(something/anything) in it's own right", might one sat aliquis ipse?
 

Pacifica

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That would be "someone/anyone in their own right". "Something/anything" is aliquid.
 

Pacifica

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That doesn't make much sense.
 

Pacifica

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Anbrutal Russicus

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Yes, thank you. With that in mind, then, could one make a construction like: Ludus football ut aliquid ipse me non delectat...?
You want to try and untether yourself from mental translation from English. When Pacifica said "you can simply use a form of ipse" instead of "you can use ut aliquid ipse" she literally meant simply using a form of ipse without any further complications: Lūdus pedifolī (or fūtubollī (just not fŭtubollī)) ipse mē nōn perinde dēlectat. However, per sē is what I'd go for instead. But if extended via a comparative clause also in the nominative (ac cum amīcīs congressus), use ipse, serving as a contrastive topic marker.
Yeah yeah I know football has a short vowel :p
 
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Pacifica

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What would the precise meaning of this be? It seems somewhat redundant. Does ipse add something here that se does not?
I suppose it is slightly redundant, but using two words or phrases of similar meaning together for emphasis isn't a rare phenomenon in language. This particular combination is in use in Latin. Cicero, for instance, talked at some point about goods that are laudabilia ipsa per se ("[themselves] laudable in themselves/in their own right").

Of course, it sounds unacceptably repetitive and awkward in English if you attempt a literal translation like "themselves by themselves". But you'll notice that ipsa and se are two totally distinct words in Latin, so it doesn't sound nearly as redundant there.
 

Anbrutal Russicus

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What would the precise meaning of this be? It seems somewhat redundant. Does ipse add something here that se does not?
I gather that a per sē used on its own in most instances will be interpreted as part of the comment, and will receive stress and a restrictive interpretation: "X is laudable only on its own, only when taken apart". Notice that this restrictive meaning works well in your phrase, hence I suggested using per sē there.

In order to get the meaning "X, when taken apart, is laudable" you have to either postpone it after the actual comment which is obviously stressed, or include the resumptive pronoun ipse which receives the stress and shows that per sē modifies the antecedent of the pronoun, and thus belongs to the topic, instead of modifying the predicate and being part of the comment. Often there will be some parenthetic elaboration in-between, so the resumptive pronoun marks the end of the elaboration and the continuation of the main clause (or its start, for that matter).

Russian has the same structure and meaning in сам по себе sám po sebé (one cognate to 'same', the other to sibi), only it's always used together no matter what and you need to include the equivalent of 'only' to clearly indicate a restrictive reading.
 
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syntaxianus

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Perhaps the English given here as "in its own right" might better be phrased as "as such" or "in itself." "In its own right" suggests suo iure. That seems a bit odd. Perhaps it could be taken to mean "in respect of the credits that are its due."
 

scrabulista

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Bloody Mary was Queen in her own right rather than Queen Consort.
If we extend the metaphor to football....
 

Clemens

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Yes, I know...this is the struggle! I wish the psychologists would identify the mechanism by which this is achieved, so that we might develop a shortcut.
There is no shortcut; it comes to you like insight comes to a Zen monk as your ability in the target language increases. For example, when you read a Latin sentence and understand it without having to translate it into English.
 
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Anbrutal Russicus

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Yes, I know...this is the struggle! I wish the psychologists would identify the mechanism by which this is achieved, so that we might develop a shortcut.
In truth the shortcut is to stop looking for shortcuts. Perhaps you aren't already familiar with this article by J. Slocum-Bailey, and this great read by A.Z. Foreman, and this compendium of conclusions that Second Language Acquisition research has currently reached. If so, you will certainly also benefit from reading through this collection of discussions related to learning methodology over at reddit. There's a concerted effort underway to bring Latin learning methodology up to date and to rescue learners from the effects of mental translation, something that most existing programs subject them to.
 
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Etaoin Shrdlu

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Could some indulgent moderator remove the apostrophe in the title? It's the sort of thing that makes a forum look bad to someone casually browsing the forum for the first time. Also, it's driving me mad.
 
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