Indo-European Religion

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
How do you feel about the reconstruction of dawn as *h₂éusōs? The dictionary usually points to *hₐéusōs.
 

Bestiola

Speculatrix
Staff member
I think Frazer & Gimbutas treat this matter, that the moon's celebrants were menstruating women, thought of as magical timekeepers. Hence the Indo-European witch, spinning at night, conjuring under a full moon: the sacred virginal moon-goddess Diana-Artemis, to see whom naked is to be transformed into a dead man, etc. There's also this, which though interesting is suspect. I don't know what special prerogative Queerists & Trans-scholars have in the realm of comparative myth.

Then again, in Balto-Slavic & Germanic myth the moon is an hombre, so maybe the Finnic peoples had a hand in it.
Awesome, thanks a bunch! I've been trying to find something other than some dubious sites on the internet, and yes, menstruating women were popping up all the time. My prof didn't mention that, I wonder where did she get that info.

I've been also trying to see what Eliade says about this: https://www.scribd.com/document/382123467/Mircea-Eliade-The-Moon-and-Its-Mystique
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
It sounds rather made up or speculative, though, doesn't it? I mean, the honey badger is pretty bad-ass, too, but it mainly got its name from the mistaken belief that it eats honey. Such simple descriptive wordings would sound to me like the most logical explanation in the case of bears, too, rather than any abstract speculation over religious fear or the like.
Speaking about honey:

*Medh-, "honey", symbolizes wisdom, [OE smead, "smart, witty], Farsi eng, "bee", but Old Irish ecne, "wise"; Lat. apis, "bee", but Toch A opyac, "mind", oppacci, "dexterous".

Honey might also be connected to the concepts of "middle" and "time"; compare Lat. medius, OE midd, Russian мед, PIE *medh-. Honey is seen by some to have been the drink of immortality and a universe symbol.

Honey may have to do with ritual ecstasy, *medh-[OE maetan, "to dream", "to be in ectasy", ON hunang, OE huning. The ending -ang, -ing, in the Germanic words, might be connected to *ag-, "to do sacred deeds", (*mel-, "honey", and speculative *mel-, "ecstasy").
 
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Etaoin Shrdlu

Civis Illustris
I heard that the reason bears were called honey eaters was so that they wouldn't know they were being discussed by humans. Indeed, in Polish they are not quite honey eaters -- the M of the honey part becomes N, just in case some clever bear works it out. I have to admit, sadly, that the euphemism theory sounds more plausible. But is their any evidence for either theory, or are they just scholarly wotireckons?
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
Well, hunter euphemisms are a sound theory, given the abundance of them from Celtic to Baltic.
 

Etaoin Shrdlu

Civis Illustris
But what's the story behind them? Fear, or unwillingness to alert the prey? Or maybe something else entirely? What is the evidence?
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
The hunter euphemisms are to not alert the animals, but whether the oldest names of the animals were euphemisms, poetic synonyms, or something else, is quite blurry.
 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
But what's the story behind them? Fear, or unwillingness to alert the prey? Or maybe something else entirely? What is the evidence?
To name the thing was supposed to be as much as to call or summon it, which is precisely what they didn't want. It's the same reason that the name of the death-god in Greek is itself patently an epithet (that is, ṇ-wid-(eHs) 'unseen (guy)'; so also our hell, cf. OE helan 'hide').
 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
Similar reverence in the case of Hebrew qere and ketiv. You don't wanna diss the Man upstairs.
 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
How do you feel about the reconstruction of dawn as *h₂éusōs? The dictionary usually points to *hₐéusōs.
I think it's sound. This is one of those instances where Sanscrit offers somewhat poor evidence. Clearly it has remodeled the word on the oblique stem Hus-.

I came across the 2nd century(?) Elean form ΑΒΩΡ in an inscription, which I like quite a bit.
 
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Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
Question is: is this verhehlen you mention related to Van Halen?
 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
:hat:
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
To name the thing was supposed to be as much as to call or summon it, which is precisely what they didn't want. It's the same reason that the name of the death-god in Greek is itself patently an epithet (that is, ṇ-wid-(eHs) 'unseen (guy)'; so also our hell, cf. OE helan 'hide').
And helle-wite (*xalja-wītjan), "hell-torment", is from *xalja, and wītjan, "wits, knowledge". Suppose being knowledgeable of the place that shall not be named is a crime indeed.

I came across the 2nd century(?) Elean form ΑΒΩΡ in an inscription, which I like quite a bit.
Oh ... so I suppose the German word Hölle is akin to verhehlen?
I love this thread.
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
Furthermore on the Indo-European cultures, and their common hold.

I will be going through IE groups one at a time sometime after this post.

The Yamnaya culture was a late Copper Agre to early Bronze Age archaeological culture, dating to 3300-3600 BC.
It spanned the territory from the Danube to the Ural in the Copper/early Bronze Age.
Evidence for settlement is scarce remains of camp sites of pastoral nomads, and stone-built
fortresses such as Mikhaylovka, where a stone wall defended a settlement of rectangular structures.

The economy of the culture, attested both by faunal remains from settlements and burials as well as site locations, suggests a high dependency on stock-breeding, either cattle or sheep goat, in many of the regional variants. The horse was also well-known from the Yamnaya culture and its remains occur on settlements and in rituals associated with burials. Although the emphasis appears to have been on stock-breeding, agriculture was also practiced in the more forested regions or major river valleys and a plow has been recovered from a Yamnaya grave. The overwhelming evidence for the Yamna culture derives from its tens of thousands of burials.

Regional studies of the labor involved in the construction of the kurgans have suggested that they may reflect a tripartite social structure and the three social classes of early India have even been explicitly employed in describing the existence of Yamnaya priests, warriors and herdsmen. But specific classes are not suggested among Yamnaya.

The origin of the culture appears to lie both with the earlier Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Sredny Stogculture of the middle Dnieper. With the use of the domestic horse and wheeled vehicles which were pulled by oxen, the Yamna culture evolved. Yamnaya burials are found to the east of the Urals and some would derive the very distant Afanasevo culture of the Altai and Yenisei from the Yamnaya and related European steppe cultures. To the west, Yamnaya burials are found extending through Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary.


The distribution and cultural life-style with horses of the Yamnaya culture has insured its general recognition as a major group Within the "Kurgan model", it is seen as avariant of late IE, ancestral to many although not necessarily all IE-speaking groups; those who reject the Kurgan model tend to limit the linguistic identity of the Yamna culture to the Indo-Iranians. The major early IE ethnic groups who first appear in ancient written documents are the Hittites and Luwians,the Indo-Iranians, the Creatans, Mycenean and the Ahhiyawa Greeks.


The Anatolians were the first dialect community to separate from the PIEs and begin an independent existence.
Supporters of the Anatolian theory say that Proto-Anatolian moved a relatively small distance from the PIE homeland, and thus explains the extreme archaism of the Anatolian languages.

In historical times the Anatolian languages were spoken in the central regions of Anatolia in Asia Minor, the result of westward migration.
At the outset of the historical period,westward (and later southward) movement of the Hittites can be assumed on the
basis of historical Hittite documents. Indo-European tribes must have appeared in these parts of Asia Minor
even earlier, by the end of the fourth millennium B.C.

The separation of Proto-Anatolian from Proto-Indo-European was followed by the separation of the Greek-Armenian-Aryan dialect grouping, which subsequently divided into Greek, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian.
The widespread migrations of the tribes making up this dialect community began after its breakup and the creation of Greek, Proto-Armenian, and Indo-Iranian as individual dialects. This breakup began when the dialect grouping was still part of Proto-Indo-European, with the formation of a separate Aryan dialect area. The Greek-Armenian dialect unity was still preserved.

After the separation of Indo-Iranian, the Greek-Armenian dialect community remained in its former territory, where it was in contact with other Indo-European dialects, particularly Tocharian.

[Gk. men, Arm. amis (from *mensos), Toch. A man, B mene 'month', Lat. mensis, Umbr. menzne, OIr. mi( (from *mens), Goth. mena, Lith. menuo, OCS meseci against Indo-Iranian mas-; or Gk. aroo '(I) plow', arotron 'plow', Arm. arawr 'plow', Toch. A, B are 'plow', Lat. aratrum, OIr. airim '(I) plow', Goth. arjan 'plow', Lith. ariu '(I) plow', OCS orjo "I plow"].



There is a relatively long list of reconstructible. words not only for farm action, but also the body. Human physiognomy was integral to the IE myth of creation, the severed parts of primordial giant's anatomy serving as alloforms for both the physical and social world of the early Indo-Europeans. The most common physical correspondences saw the following equations: flesh = earth, bone = stone, hair=plants, blood = water, eyes = sun, mind = moon, brain = clouds, head =heaven, breath = wind. In terms of social tripartition, the head was associated with the priests, the upper torso with the warriors and the lower torso, which included both the lower support limbs and genitalia, was seen as the alloform of the commoners who physically supported society and were most closely tied to such concepts as fertility and sexuality. Fertility and sexuality were central parts to PIE mythology.

Finally: the motif of a common father for the representatives of the
three social classes is widespread.
The Scythian origin myth produces another Indo-Iranian,here specifically Iranian, ancestor figure in Targitaos (Herodotus 4.5-6), the father of three sons-Lipoxais, Arpoxais and Kolaxais,-whose contest for the kingship of Scythia yields the three Scythian peoples and/or social classes.

In the Old Norse Rigspula, Rigr (Heimdallr) fathers Thrall, Karl and jarl, the eponymous representatives of the Germanic social classes (slaves, freemen, nobles).

The Slavic story of Lech, Czech and Rus is a founding myth of common fathers, although it is not as centered around social classes like the others. *H₁ést.
 
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Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
Here is a post I will read only with a good pondering beverage in hand.
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
Holding holy huoma.
 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
Which I myself have suta from the sacred stones.
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
Don't even get started on the Corded Ware (θ‿θ)
 

Issacus Divus

H₃rḗǵs h₁n̥dʰéri diwsú
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