Iáson
Cívis Illústris
venīre ('come') vs vēnīre ('go for sale/be sold').
Also for veniō, the imperative venī vs. perfect vēnī.venit (pres.) and vénit (perf.)
venīre ('come') vs vēnīre ('go for sale/be sold').
Also for veniō, the imperative venī vs. perfect vēnī.venit (pres.) and vénit (perf.)
cēdo ‘I walk’
cĕdo ’give!’
Is the last vowel of the latter short or long?
Saepe in librōs histōriam linguae tractantēs, huius verbī mentiō fit ad praebendum exemplum correptiōnis iambicae (quae nōn poētica sed historica), eaedem quae ē duenē et malē quoque contulit bene et male. Sānē vērō remānsit quod multō ūsitātum, etsī ce dare iam nōn adhibēbātur. Orīgō enim invenītur apud *ce 'hīc' (ut in ecce, hunc, hocc(e), huiusce modī) atque *dō 'dā', imperātīvus antīquissimus verbī dare quī fōrmam *deh3 aliter exspectātam indoeuropaeam ostenderet.Secundum Gaffiot, corrupta est. Quoniam terminatio verbi anceps est, unâ et dimidiâ longitudine differunt.![]()
You mentioned iambic shortening in your post, yes, but I figured I could mention more detail while specifying the diachronic iambic shortening of duenē > bene was involved here, not the poetic one of the Plautine vidĕn hánc (u u —) or volŏ scī´re (u u — u).Hasn't that been mentioned above?
I think that's likely true, I hadn't thought of that before. There might not be overwhelming ancient evidence for it, but reduction in unstressed words can be easily observed in today's languages. For one ancient example, many if not most Romance languages eliminated the -g- in egō after all, and then they often reduced the -ō to a semivowel, as in Portuguese eu [ew]. In some it went away entirely, as in the stressed jé and gié found in medieval Oïl alongside éo, jéo and jo (modern French je).I've always considered iambic shortening a real-life phenomenon, not a poetic licence. I would have thought that at least in volo, many speakers on the street also pronounced 2 short syllables (seeing as it just occurs to often).
The o in ego is short as well (so far, I haven't found a single instance in poetry where it's long, so I guess it pretty much reflects actual speech) ... that's what I mean by iambic shortening happening so often.the -g- in egō
Oh! That's interesting... I looked up the entry in L&S and it does mention "ŏ always in poets of the best age, as Cat., Verg., Hor., etc.; ō ante-class. and post-Aug., as Juv. 17, 357; Aus. Epigr. 54, 6". Most Latin textbooks, at least those in English, use the -ō variant. I was able to find an instance of it in Martial IV.72, but Martial otherwise mostly uses short -ŏ:The o in ego is short as well (so far, I haven't found a single instance in poetry where it's long, so I guess it pretty much reflects actual speech) ... that's what I mean by iambic shortening happening so often.
That's not an example of a long o in ego. The last syllable in a pentameter can be short (Ovid, for example, has lots of pentameters ending with pede).Oh! That's interesting... I looked up the entry in L&S and it does mention "ŏ always in poets of the best age, as Cat., Verg., Hor., etc.; ō ante-class. and post-Aug., as Juv. 17, 357; Aus. Epigr. 54, 6". Most Latin textbooks, at least those in English, use the -ō variant. I was able to find an instance of it in Martial IV.72, but Martial otherwise mostly uses short -ŏ:
— u u | — — | — u u | — u u | — u u | — —
‘Aes dabŏ prō nūgīs et emam tua carmina sānus?
— — | — u u | — | — u u | — u u | —
Nōn’ inquis ‘faciam tam fatuē.’ Nec egō.
And yet again here I note the short -ŏ of dăbŏ...
Lewis & Short does, and so does Gaffiot, both alongside o correptam.Nullum lexicon indicat o productam.
That's true.It's the same in all kinds of classical Latin verse, I believe, not only in pentameters. The last syllable can just be anything.
But they are.I think in order to make the claim that the last syllable in a pentameter is *usually* long, you would have to consider all closed syllables at the end of a line to be long by position.
It's the same in all kinds of classical Latin verse, I believe, not only in pentameters. The last syllable can just be anything.
I think there are a few lines in a few lyrical metres by Horace ... like the third line in the third asclaepiad, which always finishes in a long syllable (again, if you consider closed syllables at the end to be long by position) ... but in the vast majority of metres, the last syllable is anceps.That's true.
I see absolutely no problem with that term.Though I hate that term "long by position"; it's so inexact.