Metamorphoses I: 293 Scansion

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
Occupat hīc collem, cumbā sedet alter aduncā

The metre seems to demand hīc, but the sense hic (this man)

276 has something similar
Convocat hīc amnēs. Quī postquam tēcta tyrannī
intrāvēre suī,

as does 296
ille suprā segetēs aut mersae culmina vīllae
nāvigat, hīc summa piscem dēprēndit in ulmō.

Is there something I am missing?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
2 things:

- In case 1 and 3, hĭc is long by position because the next word starts with a consonant.
- Apart from that, hĭc (and hŏc) is always long by position in poetry because the c gets (secretly) doubled before vowels (that's because its original ending, the -ce, which you also find in ecce and other words that 'point' to something, is still hiding in there).

Also: the a in summa is long.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
I don't really know why grammar books bother mentioning hĭc, which is almost a purely historical form (possibly because some are convinced it's cognate with is, ea, id, which it isn't). The same †'pronominal particle' responsible for producing haec (< PI *hā-i-ke 'this gal') as opposed to *hāc is present in the form we're discussing, that is hīc (< *ho-i-ke 'this guy'; so also in the sg. masculine quī). As to the geminate -c-, written incorrectly everywhere, it is merely on analogy with hocce (< *hod-ke; sounds like Yiddish, doesn't it? Maybe I'll go buy some hotkes at the local delicatessen), which by regular rules becomes hōc.

†This thing appears in various places in IE paradigms & fucks everything up. Compare L o-stem gen. pl. -ōrum (< *-ōzōm) with S tēṣām (< P-Indo-Aryan *taysām).
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
As to the geminate -c-, written incorrectly everywhere, it is merely on analogy with hocce (< *hod-ke; sounds like Yiddish, doesn't it? Maybe I'll go buy some hotkes at the local delicatessen), which by regular rules becomes hōc.
I don't fully understand what you're saying there. By which rule does the vowel get lengthened there? Do you know other examples of that rule?

The invisible gemination reminded me of words like maius or peius, where the first syllable is actually short, but long by position.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
By which rule does the vowel get lengthened there?
I'm saying that the vowel is long to begin with. My dictionary (which I'm pretty sure is the OLD?) lists the forms as follows:
hic haec.jpg


If I remember right, A&G lists hĭc & hīc as (equally valid) collateral forms.

The invisible gemination reminded me of words like maius or peius, where the first syllable is actually short, but long by position.
I never got the logic of the phrase 'long by position', or at least didn't understand the usefulness of it. Think I even got into an argument with a prof over it. I guess that's what happens when you teach a student about metrical length but not Latin syllabification at large.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I'm saying that the vowel is long to begin with. My dictionary (which I'm pretty sure is the OLD?) lists the forms as follows:
View attachment 8822

If I remember right, A&G lists hĭc & hīc as (equally valid) collateral forms.
It looks like the Lewis & Short entry. OLD has:

Opera Momentaufnahme_2020-01-17_173341_lexica.linguax.com.png


It also gives a few cases of hic being short in poetry (I knew I had seen it somewhere ... now I remember that it was in book 6 of the Aeneid).

... it also includes the other double-consonant I talked about in hui(i)us a bit further down.

Again, I don't fully understand what you're talking about when you say you don't see the logic of "long by position".
 
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Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Again, I don't fully understand what you're talking about when you say you don't see the logic of "long by position".
Maybe the fact that some people seem to talk as if two following consonants lengthened a vowel, while it doesn't; it's the syllable that's lengthened. A syllable is long if it has a diphthong or long vowel OR if it ends in a consonant.

A consonant gets attached to the next syllable if this starts in a vowel: e.g. amat illam = a-ma-til-lam, so the ma is short; but if a second consonant follows, the first remains attached to the preceding syllable, making it long: e.g. amat me = a-mat-me, so the mat is long — not because the a magically becomes long, but because the presence of the t lengthens the whole syllable.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
In fact, perhaps it would make more sense to talk of syllables that are "short by position" rather than the other way round. The mat in amat is long by nature and made short when followed by a vowel to which the t gets attached.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Can always count on Pax to do the 'splaining when you're too inarticulate to do it yerself (by which I mean 'me').

What also annoys me is the self-referential nature of the definition. No reasonable person needs to be told that 'ā' is long & that 'a' is not long (because what distinguishes them is called by some as a 'long mark'...). On the other hand, what isn't so intuitive is the concept of 'long by position'. But that's just it. That is the whole concept; the meaning 'long by position' is implicit in the word 'long' itself. In other words, if you were to ask what does 'long' mean in the sentence 'long by position', the answer would be... 'Oh, it means... 'long'.'

It'd be like looking up 'sadness' in a dictionary and being told 'a quality of sadness'.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Bitmap dixit:
It also gives a few cases of hic being short in poetry
Right, but it also reads 'otherwise, usually long'. If the vowel is usually long, why do we need a special 'rule by which it is lengthened'?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Perhaps it's hard to tell whether the vowel is usually long or whether the vowel is short but the syllable usually long because of the "special rule" of the invisibly doubled c.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Makes sense to me.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
In other words, if you were to ask what does 'long' mean in the sentence 'long by position', the answer would be... 'Oh, it means... 'long'.'
I thought the definition was that it takes up two morae because of the consonant cluster, even though the vowel in the syllable itself is short... but as I usually can't be bothered to write all of that, I call it long :p

Right, but it also reads 'otherwise, usually long'. If the vowel is usually long, why do we need a special 'rule by which it is lengthened'?
Because the vowel itself is considered to be short? Oh, Pacifica has already answered that.
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
- Apart from that, hĭc (and hŏc) is always long by position in poetry because the c gets (secretly) doubled before vowels (that's because its original ending, the -ce, which you also find in ecce and other words that 'point' to something, is still hiding in there).
Thanks :) Now I have the other problem with Virgil
Aeneid II 554
Haec fīnis Priamī fātōrum; hic exitus illum

VI 791 has me scratching my head too :(
Hic vir, hic est, tibi quem prōmittī saepius audīs,
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Haec fī/nis Pri-a/ || /tōr(um); hic / e-xi-tus / il-lum

In the other line, the second hic seems to be short. It has been mentioned earlier in the thread that it sometimes happens.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Thanks :) Now I have the other problem with Virgil
Aeneid II 554
Haec fīnis Priamī fātōrum; hic exitus illum
Haecnis Pria (//) fātōr(um); // hic exitus illum
(ictus bold)

- - / - v v / - (//) - / - // - / - v v / - x

(hic is again measured long by [self-inflicted] position)

VI 791 has me scratching my head too :(
Hic vir, hic est, tibi quem prōmittī saepius audīs,
That was one of the exceptions the OLD mentioned where hic is meaured short.

Hic vir, hic est, tibi quem // prōmitsaepius audīs,

- v v / - v v / - // - / - - / - v v / - x
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Bitmap dixit:
I thought the definition [of 'long'] was that it takes up two morae because of the consonant cluster, even though the vowel in the syllable itself is short
That's just what I mean. Your definition (which is perfectly correct) explains both what 'long' means and what 'long by position' means/is, so that the latter is redundant.

Edit: Again, it seems redundant to me, given that the 'other type' of long syllable (i.e. 'long by quantity' or whatever it's called) is so glaringly obvious. Books reading something like: 'A syllable is long if it contains a long vowel...' I would say, "Well, yeah...".

Is there a math textbook that reads: "The sum of 2 and 2 is 4, but only if 2 is added to 2."
 
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Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Can someone give an example of hoc being short?

I don't mean to belabor this, but there's really no need for a special rule of 'here long but here short'. Like, we know that pēs is from an original *pess, or ēs from original *ess, but when we encounter ēs in Plautus, we don't say that there's some secret phenomenon but that the vowel is simply long.
It's just in the case of hĭc and hīc, both are of equal standing, no matter the historical reason.
 
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