Metamorphoses I: 293 Scansion

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Edit: Again, it seems redundant to me, given that the 'other type' of long syllable (i.e. 'long by quantity' or whatever it's called) is so glaringly obvious. Books reading something like: 'A syllable is long if it contains a long vowel...' I would say, "Well, yeah...".
You seem to be dissatisfied with 'long' essentially being used with 2 different meanings: the first one being 'long' = long by pronunciation and the second one being 'long' = taking up two morae. Would you feel better if I called latter 'heavy'?

Can someone give an example of hoc being short?
The OLD didn't give any, so I won't bother looking, either :p

I don't mean to belabor this, but there's really no need for a special rule of 'here long but here short'. Like, we know that pēs is from an original *pess, or ēs from original *ess, but when we encounter ēs in Plautus, we don't say that there's some secret phenomenon but that the vowel is simply long.
It's just in the case of hĭc and hīc, both are of equal standing, no matter the historical reason.
I think in those cases the loss of the s is compensated by a lengthening of the vowel.
Are you saying that the same is happening in hoc? I.e. that shortening hocce to hoc leads to the vowel becoming long (as opposed to heavy :p), i.e. to a different pronunciation of the o in hoc and in hocce?
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Bitmap dixit:
Would you feel better if I called latter 'heavy'?
Nein, bitte! But it's not your fault; it's the damned system, man.
Are you saying that the same is happening in hoc? I.e. that shortening hocce to hoc leads to the vowel becoming long (as opposed to heavy :p), i.e. to a different pronunciation of the o in hoc and in hocce?
Ja, mein Herr. Haben Sie es sehr gut gesagt.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I don't fully get it. I think I'll just continue calling it long by position if it's long by position.

Ja, mein Herr. Haben Sie es sehr gut gesagt.
Well, ok, I get that bit. I don't fully know the mechanisms behind the sound changes in Latin or what made linguists believe that the vowels in hic and hoc are short.

I think in words like peior, you can actually prove that the e is in fact short, but long by position.
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
Maybe the fact that some people seem to talk as if two following consonants lengthened a vowel, while it doesn't; it's the syllable that's lengthened. A syllable is long if it has a diphthong or long vowel OR if it ends in a consonant.
It is taught quite confusingly. Maybe we should look at changing the nomenclature, either your idea, or @Bitmap calling them heavy, or talk about long consonants as well as long vowels.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I never found it confusing .... which is probably why I'm confused :>
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
I don't fully get it. I think I'll just continue calling it long by position if it's long by position.
I never found it confusing .... which is probably why I'm confused
Do what feels right, thou Magister Scacchorum.
 
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