Methamorphoses

Katarina

Member
Hi!

Does someone know why domito Cycno here in Dative/Ablative?

Proxima praecipue domito victoria Cycno in sermone fuit.

Thanks :)
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
It could be read 2 ways:

1) the dative depends on proxima.

2) domito Cygno is an ablative absolute.

2) is probably a bit more likely, but you could somehow justify both, I think.

In either case, it means 'the most recent victory over the beaten Cygnus'.
If you take it as a dative, it would mean 'the victory that is most recent to the defeat of Cygnus'.
If you take it as an ablative, it would be 'the most recent victory after Cygnus had been beaten'.

Obviously the phrasing is slightly pleonastic.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Obviously the phrasing is slightly pleonastic.
I think I see what you mean; you're thinking that the idea of victory is sort of present in domito, but still I wouldn't call it a pleonasm.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I think I see what you mean; you're thinking that the idea of victory is sort of present in domito, but still I wouldn't call it a pleonasm.

Well, I called it *slightly* pleonastic... I mean, I could replaced domito with victo :p The main point of the argument was to explain the logic in the translation somehow.
 

Katarina

Member
But then I would understand that they were talking about the last victory which happened after victory over Cycnus but they were discussing exactly the victory over Cycnus.
 

Katarina

Member
What about this:

Clara decore fuit proles Elateia Caenis,
Thessalidum virgo pulcherrima, perque propinquas
perque tuas urbes (tibi enim popularis, Achille),
multorum frustra votis optata procorum.

I have no idea what votis could mean here.

I would translate that as: Caenis, the daughter of Elatus, was famous for her beauty, the most beautiful girl among Thessalians, and was in vane wished for by wishes? of many suitors in cities nearby and in your cities (she was living in the same place as you, Achilles).
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I have no idea what votis could mean here.

I would translate that as: Caenis, the daughter of Elatus, was famous for her beauty, the most beautiful girl among Thessalians, and was in vane wished for by wishes? of many suitors in cities nearby and in your cities (she was living in the same place as you, Achilles).

Essentially, yes. It's a bit pleonastic again. Maybe you can translate votum as 'vow' here.
 

Katarina

Member
Thanks.

How about this:

Duxerat Hippodamen audaci Ixione natus
nubigenas feros positis ex ordine mensis
arboribus tecto discumbere iusserat antro.

I am wondering what ex is doing here. It would seem more logical to have in here, exept if I missunderstood the sentence.

My translation: Son of the brave Ixion has married Hippodame and ordered beasts borne from cloud to lay at the tables which were put in order in the cave which was covered by the trees.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
"In order" is a correct translation. The prepositions used in different languages won't always correspond literally. Ex here, while still literally meaning "from/out of", conveys an idea like "in accordance with". Since the tables are arranged in (accordance with) order, the way they are arranged comes from order, sort of. I believe that's the logic behind this use of ex.

There should be a -que after nubigenas.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Now I'm thinking it could be more specifically about a rank/line of tables rather than any "order", but it's hard to be sure. In any case, what I said about ex still stands.
 

Katarina

Member
In tanto fremitu cunctis sine fine iacebat
sopitus venis et inexperrectus Aphidas
languentique manu carchesia mixta tenebat,
fusus in Ossaeae villosis pellibus ursae;

I have problems also with these, especially I don't know what venis stands for.

In such noise made by everybody? without end was lying Aphidas, uncoscious _____ and unawake and he was holding in tired hand mixed glasses, as he was lying on (or was he wet?) in the shaggy skins of bear of Ossa.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Cunctis goes with venis. I suppose "asleep in all (his) veins" (cunctis sopitus venis) is just a way to say he was totally unconscious.

Fusus means "stretched out", "sprawled" or the like.
 

Katarina

Member
Thanks.

How about that:

Multae illum petire sua de gente, sed una
abstulit Hylonome, qua nulla decentior inter
semifores altis habitavit femina silvis;
haec et blanditiis et amando et amafre fatendo
Cyllaron una tenet, cultu quoque, quantus in illis
esse potest membris, ut sit coma pectine levis,
ut modo rose maris, modo se violave rosave
inplicet, interdum candentia lilia gestet ...

I would like to know what kind of ablative is cultu. All that comes to my mind is ablative respectus but still it seem to me that something is missing. Like: Concerning 'cultus' she was also ... what? most beautiful? something is missing here I think.

Aslo I can't figure out what kind of dependant clauses are following. What this 'ut' means and why the subjunctive?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Thanks.

How about that:

Multae illum petire sua de gente, sed una
abstulit Hylonome, qua nulla decentior inter
semifores altis habitavit femina silvis;
haec et blanditiis et amando et amafre fatendo
Cyllaron una tenet, cultu quoque, quantus in illis
esse potest membris, ut sit coma pectine levis,
ut modo rose maris, modo se violave rosave
inplicet, interdum candentia lilia gestet ...

I would like to know what kind of ablative is cultu. All that comes to my mind is ablative respectus but still it seem to me that something is missing. Like: Concerning 'cultus' she was also ... what? most beautiful? something is missing here I think.

Aslo I can't figure out what kind of dependant clauses are following. What this 'ut' means and why the subjunctive?

My edition has cultus, although I think cultu is a bit easier to understand. The ut sounds like a final clause (purpose clause) dependent on some eliptic statement like efficit ut (she makes sure that ...) with a long catalogue of things to follow that state which things she took care of in order to look pretty. So "cultu quoque" would be translated as "With respect to her appearence, too, she made sure that her hair etc." So cultu would be an ablativus respectus in that regard.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I took cultu to be an ablative of means modifying tenet, like blanditiis et amando et amare fatendo, and I took the ut clauses to be describing what the cultus consists of; very literally something like "by ornament too, so that her hair was etc." Her cultus entailed her hair being well combed etc.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I took cultu to be an ablative of means modifying tenet, like blanditiis et amando et amare fatendo, and I took the ut clauses to be describing what the cultus consists of; very literally something like "by ornament too, so that her hair was etc." Her cultus entailed her hair being well combed etc.

That makes a lot of sense, too, and that was actually the first interpretation that came to my mind. However, you'd have to change the punctuation for that; so I tried to make sense of what might have been on the editor's mind...
 
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