Nec aestum nec hiemem: aeternum ver tecum ago.

javicalam

New Member
hi everyone, i'd like to translate this haiku poem, i mean, i want to know if its right written in latin, i know its means something like this in English, but i'm no sure (cause i dont speak english or latin, i speak Spanish, so i'm a little bit lost, hope you understand):
"not summer or winter:
been with you is living eternal spring"

I want to know if this is right in latin, the translation:
"Nec aestum nec
hiemem: aeternum ver
tecum ago "

In Spanish, is like this:
"ni verano, ni invierno: estar contigo es vivr eterna primavera"

Thank you anyway ! :p
Atte,
Javier
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
"Neither ſummer nor winter ſhall I ſpend with thee; rather, an eternal ſpring."
 

javicalam

New Member
thank you for your answer. But I want to know if this phrase in latin is written right:

"Nec aestum nec
hiemem: aeternum ver
tecum ago "

thanks, wait your answer !
 

Nikolaos

schmikolaos
Staff member
I'm pretty sure that "aestum" should be "aestatem". I don't know what do do about the missing syllable in the last line.

That aside, it looks right.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Nikolaos dixit:
I don't know what do do about the missing syllable in the last line.
you could simply add in una: una tecum ago
in the second line, you should invert aeternum and ver, else there is a syllable missing there as well

I should note, though, that haiku are originally quantifying in Japanese rather than a mere counting of syllables: A short syllable counts for one mora, a heavy syllable for two. As Latin poetry is also quantifying, you may want to consider to follow that scheme. (e.g. 'nec aestum' would already be enough to fill the first line as it would count for 5)
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
I lend my voice to that. The idea of haiku in English or Spanish is already somewhat dubious. If you then take this English- or Spanish-style ‘haiku’ and put it in Latin, it is two steps removed.

I believe any adaptation of haiku for Latin needs to take into account the characteristics of Latin, not random other languages. This means maintaining its moraic nature (no reason not to), maintaining the cæsura (no reason not to), maintaining the kigo (no reason not to), and probably increasing the number of moræ (because Latin has longer words than Japanese).

(In the West, we tend to see the 7-5-7 pattern as making a poem a haiku, whereas this is in fact the only optional part of the form.)

If you don’t follow the rules, I don’t think you can call it a haiku any more than you can call it a hexameter.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
as I mentioned above, I have a pretty loose idea of how haiku work in Japanese. Basically, I just know that they are quantifying because you've mentioned that before. But what are caeura and kigo?
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
Bitmap dixit:
I just know that they are quantifying because you've mentioned that before.
Surely you have me mixed up with someone else. ;)

A kigo (季語) is a word that anchors the poem in a certain season. In Javier’s offering it’s Spring.

A kireji (切れ字) is a word marking a cæsura in the poem.
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
Nikolaos dixit:
I don't know what do do about the missing syllable in the last line.
If you are going by syllables, there are three (tēc’ agō). The long, short and long syllables make for five moræ though.
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
We can try to squeeze it into 5-7-5: (Whoops, I realise I said 7-5-7 above!)

Perennia
nīl nisi vēra
tēc’ agō


It’s not fantastic. We have to forgo the usual Latin rule about counting verse-final syllables as heavy (which isn’t the practice in Japanese anyway).
 

Nikolaos

schmikolaos
Staff member
I was treating it as being read without elision, since that seemed to be the intended reading. If it's read as Ecclesiastical, then the syllable length is also unimportant.
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
Ah, Ecclesiastical. Otherwise known as Mispronounced Latin.
 

Nikolaos

schmikolaos
Staff member
Not in the Vatican ;)

I don't see how it's much worse than us not using pre-Great Vowel Shift quantities.
 

Manus Correctrix

QVAE CORRIGIT
It’s as bad as using pre-Great Vowel Shift sounds and calling it Modern English, or using post-GVS sounds and calling it Middle English.

Latin is necessarily a frozen standard. Otherwise we might as well be speaking Romance.
 

javicalam

New Member
Thank you for all the answers!!
So, i’d prefer to write the “haiku” or whatever it is, in the right way in latin, although its not a real “haiku”. With your correcctions Could be somethitng like this?:

“Nec aestatem nec
hiemem: ver aeternum
una tecum ago”

But if i try to follow the rules, cause i want to be a “haiku” in latin, how’d it be?

“Perennia
nīl nisi vēra
tēc’ agō”


(Haiku, plural haiku, is a very short form of Japanese poetry typically characterised by three qualities:
*The essence of haiku is "cutting" (kiru). This is often represented by the juxtaposition of two images or ideas and a kireji ("cutting word") between them, a kind of verbal punctuation mark which signals the moment of separation and colours the manner in which the juxtaposed elements are related.
*Traditional haiku consist of 17 on (also known as morae), in three phrases of 5, 7 and 5 on respectively. Any one of the three phrases may end with the kireji. Although haiku are often stated to have 17 syllables, this is incorrect as syllables and on are not the same.( Modern Japanese gendai (現代) haiku are increasingly unlikely to follow the tradition of 17on)
*A kigo (seasonal reference)

Example translated:
lend me your arms,
fast as thunderbolts,
for a pillow on my journey.
:hi:
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Cursor Nictans dixit:
We have to forgo the usual Latin rule about counting verse-final syllables as heavy (which isn’t the practice in Japanese anyway).
That's not true. The usual rule is more like it doesn't matter which quantity the last syllable has. This may lead you to believe that it has a lengthening effect in metres like the pentametre or in iambs, where you would naturally expect the last syllable to be long, like in this one:

vade, liber, verbisque meis loca grata saluta:
contingam certe quo licet illa pede.


However, I can also think of examples where you would naturally expect the last syllable to be short, but you find it replaced by a long syllable. The easiest example would be a hexametre having a spondee in the 6th foot, but you may of course argue that spondees are not unusual replacements for dactyles, and by that token also trochees, in hexametres.
I can also think of examples in prose clausulae.
As far as I know, Cicero has a preference for finishing his sentences is dicreticusses (-v-/-v-) and dispondees (--/--), which naturally end in long syllables, but also in acatalectic (i.e. 'incomplete') dicreticusses (-v-/-v) and ditrochees (-v/-v), which would naturally end in short syllables. However, for all of those clausulae, you may replace the last syllable with a syllable of the other quantity (so they're essentially anceps ... or ancipites for that matter)

a well known example:
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia / nostra?
acatalic dicreticus -v- / - - (- instead of v)
quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit au/dacia?
dicreticus -v- / -vv (v instead of -)
Nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae, nihil timor populi, nihil concursus bonorum omnium, nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus, nihil horum ora voltusque mo/verunt?
acatalectic dicreticus -v- / -- (- instead of v)

To sum it up: A syllable at the end of a verse or sentence may either be long or short and there is no lengthening or shortening effect ... at least in open syllables.

However, with closed syllables I *feel* (i.e. I can't really prove it) that the end of a verse may have a lengthening effect because the stop it causes feels quite similar to a consonant following up. I also base that feeling on the fact that a) verse endings do not cause elisions and b) even caesurae (weaker pauses) may have such an effect. Therefore I'd say that a closed syllable that is short by nature may, if it is followed by only one consonant (e.g. tenet) be regarded as either long or short at the end of a verse.

In some very few cases caesurae may even lengthen short, open syllables. Maybe you'd even get away with counting a short final open syllable as long if you desperately need that for your haiku
 
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