New Problems on my 14th century text.

Hroswitha

New Member

Location:
United States
I haven't been logging in lately, but I have been hard at work on my 14th century manuscript. Currently, I'm simultaneously working on the paleography and translating, and I've come on a stretch that's very difficult going. When this author tells a story, it's not that hard to follow. When he lapses into metaphor, I get lost.

This section is all a series of references to the role of purgatory in medieval Latin theology. The notion is that while the source of the fire is the same as that found in Hell, its purpose is to cleanse rather than punish. That explains all the bathing metaphors. Parsing this stuff is difficult, and I'm looking for suggestions. I'll give you a chunk so you can see where this guy is going.

In quarto etiam dyalogorum Gregorii scribitur, quod honeste vite probatur quidam in eo loco in quo aque calide vapores faciunt nimios quotiens necessitas corporis exigebat lavari consueverat. Ubi dum die quadam fuisset ingressus: invenit quondam in cognitum virum ad obsequium paratum, qui sibi calciamenta de pedibus abstraheret, vestimenta susciperet, exeventi de caloribus sabana preberet, atque omne ministerium cum magno famulatu perageret. Cumque hoc sepius fieret, idem presbyter die quodam ad balneum iturus intra semetipsum cogitans dixit. Viro illi qui michi solet tam diustis simae ad lavandum obsequi ingratus apparere non debeo, sed aliquid michi necesse est et pro munere portare. Tunc duas secum oblationum coronas detulit. Qui mox ut pervenit ad locum, hommen muenit atque ex more crus obsequio in omnibus usus est. Lavit itaque et cum vestitus voluisset egredi hoc quod secum detulerat obsequenti sibi viro pro benedictione obtulit peteris ut benigne susciperet quod ei caritatis gratia offerret.

Any suggestions or advice on how to handle this section will be appreciated. And if words don't make sense in the context -- I'm still not entirely sure about "simae" -- there is a possibility that the term is unclear in the text or it's a bizzarre abbreviation. However, I have the text in front of me and can doublecheck.

Thanks to anyone willing to tackle this in advance.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
In quarto etiam dyalogorum Gregorii scribitur, quod honest(a)e vit(a)e probatur quidam in eo loco in quo aqu(a)e calid(a)e vapores faciunt nimios quotiens necessitas corporis exigebat lavari consueverat. Ubi dum die quadam fuisset ingressus: invenit quondam in cognitum virum ad obsequium paratum, qui sibi calciamenta de pedibus abstraheret, vestimenta susciperet, exeventi de caloribus sabana preberet, atque omne ministerium cum magno famulatu perageret. Cumque hoc s(a)epius fieret, idem presbyter die quodam ad balneum iturus intra semetipsum cogitans dixit(, ")Viro illi qui mi(c)hi solet tam (diutissime) ad lavandum obsequi ingratus apparere non debeo, sed aliquid mi(c)hi necesse est et pro munere portare.(") Tunc duas secum oblationum coronas detulit. Qui mox ut pervenit ad locum, hom(in)e(m) (inv)enit atque ex more crus obsequio in omnibus usus est. Lavit itaque et cum vestitus voluisset egredi hoc quod secum detulerat obsequenti sibi viro pro benedictione obtulit. peteris ut benigne suscipere(s) quod ei caritatis gratia offerret.

"In the fourth of Gregory's dialogues it is written that a certain man being agreed to be of honest life had been accustomed to be bathed in a place in which the vapors of hot water (steam) make clouds however often necessity of the body required. When he had entered on a certain day, he thereafter came upon a man he knew ready to serve, who would take his shoes off his feet, take his clothes, supply towels for him as he got out of the hot water, and completely carry out every duty with great servility. And as he would do this often, the same presbyter on a certain day was about to go to the bath, said to himself in thought 'I ought not appear ungrateful to that man who is accustomed to serve me while bathing for so long, rather I need to bring something as a remuneration.' So he brought with himself two crowns as an offering. And soon when he got to the place he came upon the man and by custom he made use of the help in all matters (??). Then he washed and since now he was dressed and about to leave, he presented this which he had carried with him as a token of appreciation for the man serving him. You are asked (?) to take up kindly what was offered to him for the sake of charity."

There are a number of questionable points here. Mox ut is terrible latin, and the section atque ex more crus obsequio in omnibus usus est. has me buffaloed--is this the correct reading? Finally, the last line with peteris is, I assume, the author speaking to the reader, and so I'd like to make that second verb susciperes, but it all seems a little iffy...
 

Hroswitha

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Location:
United States
"Mox ut" is correct. I've checked and doublechecked and, while it's easy to confuse a gothic x and r, there is no ambiguity in this line. As for "ex more crus obsequio in omnibus usus est", would a reading of "ex more eius obsequio in omnibus usus est" make more sense. Upon closer examination, I believe "eius" is correct there.

I checked the rest, but it is clearly "susciperet" instead of the second person susciperes. I wish it weren't.

Your translation is beautiful, but in going over it, I'm having trouble following your untangling of the grammar. For example, the line

Viro illi qui michi solet tam diustis simae ad lavandum obsequi ingratus apparere non debeo, sed aliquid michi necesse est et pro munere portare.

I had gotten that the author was writing that "I must not seem ungrateful to that men who is so accustomed to..." But how are you translating "diustis simae"? The only translations I can find of those terms refer to "withered" and either an ogee or "snub-nose". Can you clarify?

Thank you very much for your help. I had the spare outlines, but your translation is so much cleaner and more logical. I appreciate your time.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Hroswitha dixit:
"Mox ut" is correct. I've checked and doublechecked and, while it's easy to confuse a gothic x and r, there is no ambiguity in this line.
That's OK; it's bad but in line with Medieval usage.
As for "ex more crus obsequio in omnibus usus est", would a reading of "ex more eius obsequio in omnibus usus est" make more sense. Upon closer examination, I believe "eius" is correct there.
I should have though of eius; this makes much better sense: "by custom he made use of his servitude in all things." Meaning he depended on him for what he usually did .
the line Viro illi qui michi solet tam diustis simae ad lavandum obsequi ingratus apparere non debeo, sed aliquid michi necesse est et pro munere portare. I had gotten that the author was writing that "I must not seem ungrateful to that men who is so accustomed to..." But how are you translating "diustis simae"? The only translations I can find of those terms refer to "withered" and either an ogee or "snub-nose". Can you clarify?
I'm betting this is actually diutissime - "very long a time", an adverb with the ae ending mistakenly placed for a single e.
Thank you very much for your help. I had the spare outlines, but your translation is so much cleaner and more logical. I appreciate your time.
Happy to oblige...
 
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