Offensive phrase about the Church (Deleted)

hevizap

New Member

I'm writing a book and I need to word this phrase correctly as some writing it in the 1400's.
Thank you!
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

I agree with the member who reported this post. It is offensive.
You will have to find someone else to translate this for you.
 

hevizap

New Member

I am so, so sorry if I offended anyone. Please forgive me. My work is in Church history and it's impact on culture. I am using a phrase attributed to St. Augustine although it has never been proven the it is his.

The phrase is widely used in Catholic texts and Protestant texts. From the Catholic perspective it has to do with an actual sinless church that IS our mother. From the Protestant perspective it is point of view that has to do with a Church that has committed "spiritual" adultery but it will be redeemed completely.

I know the phrase by itself is offensive, yet for century it has been discussed by Christian and Protestant authorities.

Again, please forgive me if it offended any one. My intention was not to bring harm, it was to try to find out how that phrase was said in Latin in the 1400´s.

Sorry.
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

Interesting. Do you have a reputable reference attributing this to St Augustine?
 

hevizap

New Member

Thank you for reading my reply!

Precisely, there is no reputable source that says the phrase is St. Augustine's, as it not on any of his proven writings. It is like another famous phrase ". . . preach the gospel and if everything else fails, use words." It is attributed to St. Augustine but he did not say that. Tony Campolo an Evangelical scholar has written on the phrase, he personally told me that he believed it was St. Augustine's.

Some Church historians, I read somewhere, have attribute it to Martin Luther but I find that really hard to believe because the concept is older than him. Dante had played with the idea in 1308 in the Divine Comedy. (Ecclesia: Pura or Puttana?)

Yet the spiritual concept of the phrase is very strong. It stems from Bible stories like Rahab the prostitute how is redeemed and who later is found in Jesus' genealogy. The prophet Hosea who is commanded by God to mary Gomer a prostitute. Also it is referenced to the whore Babylon which is mentioned in Revelation. Many scholars say this whore, Babylon, is the Church, yet they are not insulting the Church, they are stating a fact followed by the concept of redemption.

The concept is a whore that is turned into saint.

Thank you
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

I understand the topos, but surely if there is no evidence that St Augustine said actually said it, then the quote should be rejected as bogus shouldn't it?
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

BTW, if you can quote a 14th century author who actually uses the phrase, we could probably find the original wording.
 

Travis

New Member

lol. Augustine censored! That's great. I know exactly the quote you're talking about. At the risk of being censored, I would render it thus:

Ecclesia meretrix est, sed illa mater mea est.

This should be perfectly in line with Medieval Latin. Incidentally, I just took Medieval Latin, and passed cum volantes colores! :)
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

Travis dixit:
lol. Augustine censored! That's great
He had a wild youth ;)

But I am interested to know. If it is not in his extant writings, what is the evidence that he actually said it?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

  • Patronus

Travis dixit:
Incidentally, I just took Medieval Latin, and passed cum volantes colores! :)
are you serious?
 

Travis

New Member

Nikolaos dixit:
He is looking at "cum volantes colores", which should be in the ablative ;)
My bad. Medieval Latin has ruined me; it is much more loose regarding whether a preposition takes an accusative or an ablative.

cum volantibus coloribus. Happy now? No more 3am Latin for me. :)
 

cinefactus

Censor

  • Censor

  • Patronus

Travis dixit:
My bad. Medieval Latin has ruined me; it is much more loose regarding whether a preposition takes an accusative or an ablative.
Egeria uses cum with acc. Do you have some other examples?
 
Top