Propertius

[Katarina]

So I am trying to translate Propertius now. I thought Sulpicia was hard. But this one supassed all my expectations. I go with intuition since in most cases I have no idea how grammatic structure of his sentences really works. So I was wondering, does anyone has or knows any (online, not book) commentary that comments his poems regarding grammatic structire and not only the content? I would trully apreciate it.

 

[Bitmap]

I don't know any commentary, sorry ... but most of them will probably not explain much of the grammatical structure, anyway. I don't remember Propertius as being particularly exceptional (as far as his grammar is concerned). Do you have an example of what sentences are unclear to you?

 

[Katarina]

et quamvis duplici correptum ardore iuberent
hac Amor hac Liber, durus uterque deus,
subiecto leviter positam temptare lacerto
osculaque admota sumere arma manu,
non tamen ausus eram dominae turbare quietem,
expertae metuens iurgia saevitiae;
sed sic intentis haerebam fixus ocellis,
Argus ut ignotis cornibus Inachidos.

From subiecto on.

subiecto leviter positam temptare lacerto
osculaque admota sumere arma manu,

subiecto lacerto - of whom, Cintia or Propertius? abl. absolute? abl. modi? abl. of circumstances?
sumere positam? sumere oscula? sumere arma?
admota oscula? admota manu?
And then try to put together some meaningful translation.


sed sic intentis haerebam fixus ocellis,
Argus ut ignotis cornibus Inachidos.

int. ocellis - with the eyes so probably abl of means?
ignotis cornibus - ? D/Abl.? abl. loci with haerebam??

 

[Bitmap]

subiecto lacerto - of whom, Cintia or Propertius? abl. absolute? abl. modi? abl. of circumstances?

It is an ablative absolute. If you find a participle + noun in the ablative, I think you should expect it to be an ablative absolute first (and in most cases you will be right).
An ablative absolute often refers back to an action of the sentence's subject ... in many cases it is what is called 'crypto-active', which means that it is a passive construction, but that it actually refers to an active action by the subject.
So subiecto lacerto = 'after (my) arm has been slipped under (her)'
But you can also translate it as 'after slipping my arm under her' or as 'to slip my arm under her and then ...'

sumere positam? sumere oscula? sumere arma?

It cannot be sumere positam. These are two infinitive constructions separated by the que on oscula.
It should be sumere oscula.
Actually, the Latin library has a reading that has 'tarda' rather than 'arma'. The reason I checked was that arma doesn't actually fit in metrically here. But if you wanted to make sense of a construction like 'sumere oscula arma' you would consider arma to be an accusative complement to oscula: 'to pick up kisses as arms'
The line would work metrically if it said 'ut arma', in which case you could translate 'to pick up kisses like arms'.
I like the reading tarda better, though, which would just mean 'to pick up (steal) slow kisses'.

admota oscula? admota manu?
And then try to put together some meaningful translation.

It has to be admota manu. The -a in admota has to be long for metrical reasons. This is an ablative absolute again that works the same way as subiecto lacerto: 'after my hand has been moved up' = 'after moving up my hand'.
The idea here is that he puts his arm under her (maybe under her head) [subiecto lacerto] and then moves up his hand [admota manu] in order to move her head up a bit to give her kisses.

As for the translation:
So they had a good night out and after a few drinks, she's lying there drunk while he is drunk an horny ...

et quamvis duplici correptum ardore iuberent
hac Amor hac Liber, durus uterque deus,
... and although Amor on the one hand and Liber (= wine, drunkenness) on the other hand, both cruel gods, command me, who (I) have been seized [contactum] by a twofold passion (which means love and wine again), to ...

subiecto leviter positam temptare lacerto
osculaque admota sumere tarda manu,
- softly put my arm und her [subiecto leviter lacerto] and then to tempt her [temptare] as she is lying there [positam] ...
- and to move up my hand and steal slow kisses — or with oscula (ut) arma "to pick up kisses like arms"

 

[Bitmap]

sed sic intentis haerebam fixus ocellis,
Argus ut ignotis cornibus Inachidos.

int. ocellis - with the eyes so probably abl of means?
ignotis cornibus - ? D/Abl.? abl. loci with haerebam??

Both are datives that depend on fixus
figere aliquid alicui rei = to fix something onto something

Argus is the thingy with a hundred eyes that guarded Io (daughter of Inachus, hence called 'Inachis') when she was turned into a cow (hence the horns), so he didn't know who she really was (hence ignotis).

sed sic intentis haerebam fixus ocellis,
Argus ut ignotis cornibus Inachidos.

But I remained close [sed haerebam], fixed on her attentive eyes [fixus ocellis intentis] in the same way [sic]
as Argus (fixed his eyes) on the unkown horns of Inachus's daughter. (... on the horns of Inachus's daughter whose origin he had no idea about)

 

[Katarina]

Both are datives that depend on fixus
figere aliquid alicui rei = to fix something onto something

Argus is the thingy with a hundred eyes that guarded Io (daughter of Inachus, hence called 'Inachis') when she was turned into a cow (hence the horns), so he didn't know who she really was (hence ignotis).

sed sic intentis haerebam fixus ocellis,
Argus ut ignotis cornibus Inachidos.

But I remained close [sed haerebam], fixed on her attentive eyes [fixus ocellis intentis] in the same way [sic]
as Argus (fixed his eyes) on the unkown horns of Inachus's daughter. (... on the horns of Inachus's daughter whose origin he had no idea about)

Are you sure that these are her eyes since she is sleeping. How could be her eyes attentive?

 

[Bitmap]

Are you sure that these are her eyes since she is sleeping. How could be her eyes attentive?

Well, theoretically intentis ocellis could also be an ablative absolute, in which case it would refer to his own eyes being watchful.
I took it to be a dative because I thought it had to be a parallel construction to ignotis cornibus in the second line, where it is clear that it has to be Argus ignotis cornibus [dat.] fixus.
... so I took it that she was not fully asleep, but just lying there being rather tipsy.

 

[Bitmap]

Maybe you're right and intentis ocellis should rather be taken as an ablative absolute referring to Propertius's eyes ... and then ignotis cornibus should be taken as a dative depending on an implied fixus in the second line. That would at least seem to make the most sense.

 

[Katarina]

Maybe you're right and intentis ocellis should rather be taken as an ablative absolute referring to Propertius's eyes ... and then ignotis cornibus should be taken as a dative depending on an implied fixus in the second line. That would at least seem to make the most sense.

I think this is better since later she wakes up and reproches with him how she was waiting for him at home and at the end fall asleep. dum me iucundis lassam Sopor impulit alis. illa fuit lacrimis ultima cura meis. These are the last verses spoken by Cynthia.

 

[Pacifica]

Yes, it makes far more sense to take the eyes as his.

 

[Bitmap]

I think this is better since later she wakes up and reproches with him how she was waiting for him at home and at the end fall asleep. dum me iucundis lassam Sopor impulit alis. illa fuit lacrimis ultima cura meis. These are the last verses spoken by Cynthia.

Yes, it makes far more sense to take the eyes as his.

I stand corrected by the ladies.

Btw., Katarina , your questions are not really beginner questions. The 'Reading Latin' forums might be a bit more appropriate for them. With your permission, I could ask a mod to move them there.

 

[rothbard]

So I am trying to translate Propertius now. I thought Sulpicia was hard. But this one supassed all my expectations. I go with intuition since in most cases I have no idea how grammatic structure of his sentences really works. So I was wondering, does anyone has or knows any (online, not book) commentary that comments his poems regarding grammatic structire and not only the content? I would trully apreciate it.

I would recommend the In Usum Delphini edition. The notes are not so much focused on grammar, however it includes a prose version written in easier Latin, which usually helps to clarify the meaning. You can find the links to other similar books here.

 

[Katarina]

I stand corrected by the ladies.

Btw., Katarina , your questions are not really beginner questions. The 'Reading Latin' forums might be a bit more appropriate for them. With your permission, I could ask a mod to move them there.

Sure, thank you.

 

[cinefactus]

I agree, Propertius is not even close to be beginning Latin I am going to move this to Reading Latin.

 

[Katarina]

I would recommend the In Usum Delphini edition. The notes are not so much focused on grammar, however it includes a prose version written in easier Latin, which usually helps to clarify the meaning. You can find the links to other similar books here.

It is just life changing to discover this!

 

[Katarina]

2.1.49-50

si memini, solet illa levis culpare puellas,
et totam ex Helena non probat Iliada.

A stupid question maybe but how is a nominative of Iliada, is it sg. or pl. and how it is declinated (greek or normal)? I haven't been able to find anything in a dictionary on that topic.

 

[Bitmap]

Iliada is the accusative of Ilias, Iliados. You will probably find it s.v. Ilium, Ilion or Ilius.

Ilias is ... Homer's Ilias.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

L&S give the genitive as Iliadis, but don't provide the entire declension.

 

[Katarina]

E. Īlĭas , ădis, f.
1. The Trojan woman, i. e. Helen, Ov. Tr. 2, 371.—In plur.: Īlĭădes , um, Trojan women or girls, Verg. A. 3, 65; 2, 580.—
2. The celebrated epic poem that describes the Trojan war, the Iliad, Prop. 2, 34 (3, 32), 66; Ov. A. A. 3, 414. —On account of its great extent, used fig. to represent a great quantity or number, an Iliad, a whole Iliad, Ov. P. 2, 7, 33; cf. written as Greek: tanta malorum impendet Ἰλιάς, Cic. Att. 8, 11, 3; and in plur.: “tunc vero longas condimus Iliadas,” Prop. 2, 1, 14.
Found it. So it is greek or latin declination but in this case the greek one?

 

[Pacifica]

Like many Greek borrowings, it's sometimes declined as Greek and sometimes given Latinized endings. Both Iliadis (Latinized) and Iliados (Greek) are found as a genitive.

In your passage, Iliada is a Greek accusative form, yes.