Pugio Bruti XIII

john abshire

Well-Known Member
Terentia patri respondit: “memini, O pater, sed tibi dormiendum est.”
Tum Terentius, “mea filia,” inquit, “Audi: ante me sunt tenebrae. Mox moriar.”


Terentia replied to her father: “I remember O father, but to you he is sleeping.”
Then Terentius said, “my daughter listen: Before me there is darkness. Tomorrow I die.”
??
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member

john abshire

Well-Known Member
Not by any stretch.

You came across a similar construction recently, remember? Tibi descendendum est. Gerundive in an impersonal passive construction, with dative of agent.

Look up mox. It doesn't mean "tomorrow". Also check the tense of moriar.
Tibi dormiendum est
you need to sleep.

mox moriar.
I will die soon.
??
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Yes!
 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens
Staff member
Yeah, I've sometimes heard it said that the hardest part of the passive periphrastic is the name.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Dormiendum est
It is to be sleeping, or it is to be asleep?
(Then add tibi for “it is to be sleeping/ asleep by you”)
??
No. "It is to be slept." That's not really English, of course, but the idea is that the act of sleeping needs to be done.
 
The passive periphrastic is sometimes called the gerundive of obligation. Thinking of it like that might help fix how it's used in your mind.
 
Another way might be to remember that some of them are used in English, think of the word 'agenda' as 'the things which must/ ought/ need to be done'. Also words like memoranda and girls names like Amanda and Miranda.
 

john abshire

Well-Known Member
No. "It is to be slept." That's not really English, of course, but the idea is that the act of sleeping needs to be done.
I see now. my text gives examples of the gerundive “to be loved”, “to be warned”, etc.
One thing that bothered me was why the gerundive here ended in -um, like a gerund? I was looking for -ing.
Then I rediscovered “gerundive of obligation” in my text. “In cases of verbs used intransively, .....the neuter of the gerundive in impersonal construction....“
Mihi currendum est “it ought to be run by me”, or “I must run”
This fit examples in pugio Bruti
Tibi dormiendum est “
you need to sleep“
Tibi descendendum est “you need to go down”

could you also express “you need to sleep”
Tibi dormire opus est ? “For you” tibi “to sleep”dormire “there is a need” opus est ?
 

john abshire

Well-Known Member
Another way might be to remember that some of them are used in English, think of the word 'agenda' as 'the things which must/ ought/ need to be done'. Also words like memoranda and girls names like Amanda and Miranda.
Thanks for agenda, and gerundive of obligation.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I know we beat them in Teutoburg Forest, but we didn't make it that far ...
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
could you also express “you need to sleep”
Tibi dormire opus est ? “For you” tibi “to sleep”dormire “there is a need” opus est ?
I'm not sure how frequently you actually find opus esse with both a dative and an infinitive, but in theory at least yes, you could say that.
 
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