Pugio Bruti XIII

[john abshire]

Terentia patri respondit: “memini, O pater, sed tibi dormiendum est.”
Tum Terentius, “mea filia,” inquit, “Audi: ante me sunt tenebrae. Mox moriar.”

Terentia replied to her father: “I remember O father, but to you he is sleeping.”
Then Terentius said, “my daughter listen: Before me there is darkness. Tomorrow I die.”
??

 

[Pacifica]

to you he is sleeping

Not by any stretch.

You came across a similar construction recently, remember? Tibi descendendum est. Gerundive in an impersonal passive construction, with dative of agent.

Tomorrow I die.

Look up mox. It doesn't mean "tomorrow". Also check the tense of moriar.

 

[john abshire]

Not by any stretch.

You came across a similar construction recently, remember? Tibi descendendum est. Gerundive in an impersonal passive construction, with dative of agent.

Look up mox. It doesn't mean "tomorrow". Also check the tense of moriar.

Tibi dormiendum est
you need to sleep.

mox moriar.
I will die soon.
??

 

[Pacifica]

Yes!

 

[john abshire]

Yes!

I found the passive periphrastic with dative of agent in wheelock’s.
[It’s not as bad as it sounds.]

 

[Dantius]

Yeah, I've sometimes heard it said that the hardest part of the passive periphrastic is the name.

 

[john abshire]

Yes!

Dormiendum est
It is to be sleeping, or it is to be asleep?
(Then add tibi for “it is to be sleeping/ asleep by you”)
??

 

[Bitmap]

This is like the 10th time you ask about gerundives.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I didn't think repetition bored you; on the contrary, you seem to thrive on it.

 

[Pacifica]

Dormiendum est
It is to be sleeping, or it is to be asleep?
(Then add tibi for “it is to be sleeping/ asleep by you”)
??

No. "It is to be slept." That's not really English, of course, but the idea is that the act of sleeping needs to be done.

 

[Notascooby]

The passive periphrastic is sometimes called the gerundive of obligation. Thinking of it like that might help fix how it's used in your mind.

 

[Notascooby]

Another way might be to remember that some of them are used in English, think of the word 'agenda' as 'the things which must/ ought/ need to be done'. Also words like memoranda and girls names like Amanda and Miranda.

 

[john abshire]

No. "It is to be slept." That's not really English, of course, but the idea is that the act of sleeping needs to be done.

I see now. my text gives examples of the gerundive “to be loved”, “to be warned”, etc.
One thing that bothered me was why the gerundive here ended in -um, like a gerund? I was looking for -ing.
Then I rediscovered “gerundive of obligation” in my text. “In cases of verbs used intransively, .....the neuter of the gerundive in impersonal construction....“
Mihi currendum est “it ought to be run by me”, or “I must run”
This fit examples in pugio Bruti
Tibi dormiendum est “you need to sleep“
Tibi descendendum est “you need to go down”

could you also express “you need to sleep”
Tibi dormire opus est ? “For you” tibi “to sleep”dormire “there is a need” opus est ?

 

[Bitmap]

One thing that bothered me was why the gerundive here ended in -um, like a gerund? I was looking for -ing.

You were looking for a Latin gerundive ending in -ing?

 

[john abshire]

Another way might be to remember that some of them are used in English, think of the word 'agenda' as 'the things which must/ ought/ need to be done'. Also words like memoranda and girls names like Amanda and Miranda.

Thanks for agenda, and gerundive of obligation.

 

[Bitmap]

I know we beat them in Teutoburg Forest, but we didn't make it that far ...

 

[Pacifica]

could you also express “you need to sleep”
Tibi dormire opus est ? “For you” tibi “to sleep”dormire “there is a need” opus est ?

I'm not sure how frequently you actually find opus esse with both a dative and an infinitive, but in theory at least yes, you could say that.