Quantum laudis habet mundus quantumve triumphi, Fama minus titulis asserit esse suis. In modicum rep

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Hello everyone, still from the same text, capitula XII: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ebulo.html

Quantum laudis habet mundus quantumve triumphi,
Fama minus titulis asserit esse suis.
In modicum reputans tandem pro viribus orbem,
In Domino voluit spe meliore frui.

How much praise has the world or how much triumph,
Reputation asserts it is less than its titles (of honor).

So as to make things clearer for you, the subject of the next sentence is not fama of course, but a certain Fredericus.

The problem starts already with in modicum, I don't know what it's supposed to mean here. I can't really make sense of reputans pro viribus orbem either. "Finally considering a little the world for the forces"??? What is that supposed to mean? That he finally considered that it was not so good to fill the world with violence or so? Or is it the exact opposite, i.e he was considering the idea of conquering the wolrd by violence?

Well, at least the last line is easy: He wanted to enjoy a better hope in the Lord.

Potestisne, doctissimi sodales, tenebras mei cerebri vestra scientia illuminare?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Well it's written in two words, in modicum. Now a typo is always possible I guess, but...
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
Is it inmodicum, i.e. immodicum, maybe?
That's the only way I can make sense of it: "In the end considering the world, for all its power, too extravagant, he wished to enjoy a better hope in the Lord."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Indeed this makes sense.

And about the second line, have you got an idea?
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
my take (off to work)


How(ever) much praise or triumph the world has <for him = Fredericus>,

reputation (I read fama's ending as a short vowel) claims <this= quantum laudis etc.>to be less than his titles

Ultimately believing the world to be immoderate with regard to his powers,

He(=Fredericus) wished to experience better hope in the Lord.

On second thought , I am not entirely sure about line 2
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
How(ever) much praise or triumph the world has <for him = Fredericus>,

reputation (I read fama's ending as a short vowel) claims <this= quantum laudis etc.>to be less than his titles
Is it possible for that "for him" to be implied?

Problem with the second line, it's laudis suis, reflexive possession, so normally it should be about the titles of the subject, which is fama... However I read somewhere that in medieval Latin the reflexive possessive was sometimes used instead of eius (as well as sibi instead of ei)... So you think that's what happens here?

Or is it really meant to say "the titles of reputation" (but that is the titles reputation can bring him)? But this makes less sense indeed...
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
Laudis (=genetivus partitivus) and suis (=possessive pronoun) do not agree. It's titulis and suis.
I'm just having second thoughts
I think it is
Reputation asserts that its titles (maybe a dative of possession) have less <praise/glory> (minus laudis /minus triumphi). I think you are right concerning the lax use of eius/suus in medieval Latin..
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Laudis (genetivus partitivus) and suis (=possessive pronoun) do not agree. It's titulis and suis.
Yes of course, I know. I wrote laudis out of distraction...
Reputation asserts that its titles (may be a dative of possession) have less <praise/glory> (minus laudis /minus triumphi).
It's the exact opposite that first appeared to me: quantum laudis quantumve triumphi esse minus titulis suis (ablative) = however much praise or triumph is less than its titles...

Now what you say, "asserts that less (triumph etc) is to its titles", is possible too... Ahem. What a madmen's language, really.
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
I think this passage is especially tricky. One should really sit down to analyse larger portions of the text in order to get a feeling for the author's Latin (I'm sorry I'm rather pressed for time at the moment).
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Well, I have read (or should I rather say deciphered...?) all the preceding, but personally it doesn't help me figure out this passage :(.

And I bet I've not finished bothering you with exerpts from this text, others will surely come...!
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
You're most welcome :)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Quantum laudis habet mundus quantumve triumphi,
Fama minus titulis asserit esse suis.

And what if fama was an ablative and if Fredericus was the subject?

However much praise and triumph has the world,
He asserts it il less by renown than his titles (i.e his own titles are more famous than all the praise and triumph in the world).

This makes sense, doesn't it...?
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
But the poem being written in elegaic couplets precludes the second a in fama from being a long vowel.
The pentametre reads
Fama minus titulis asserit esse suis.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Oh, ok. Thanks. I know nothing about meter.

Judging from what I've seen so far, I'd say the guy who wrote this stuff probably was mad, but there are plenty of Latin authors whose language is sane, in some cases sublime; personally I'd rather read those any day.
No doubt I will. Are you saying you think it's normal to have difficulties with this text...?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
More like it's normal to have nothing to do with this text.
Well to tell you the truth, I just picked it up at random in the medieval Latin page of the Latin libraby! (After two other ones which were far easier.) Now that I have started reading it, I think I will carry it out until the end.
 
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