Quid ergo talium nece exempli statuitur, cujus causam ...

limetrees

Civis Illustris
A passage from Spinoza
Quid ergo talium nece exempli statuitur, cujus causam inertes, & animo impotentes ignorant, seditiosi oderunt, & honesti amant?

Which if either translation is correct? I think the former (the cause of which), because it's "cuius" and not "quorum", but am I right?
Thanks

What an example will be drawn from the death of such men, the cause of which the dull and weak of mind fail to grasp, the seditious hate and the honest love.

or
What an example will be drawn from the death of such men, whose cause the dull and weak of mind fail to grasp, the seditious hate and the honest love.
 

Ignis Umbra

Ignis Aeternus
I think the second version is the literal translation, and the first is simply reworded to sound like conventional English.
because it's "cuius" and not "quorum"
Whether it is cuius or quorum is irrelevant because they both translate in exactly the same way, and besides, quorum would be ungrammatical here, as exempli is singular.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
I think the second version is the literal translation, and the first is simply reworded to sound like conventional English.

Whether it is cuius or quorum is irrelevant because they both translate in exactly the same way, and besides, quorum would be ungrammatical here, as exempli is singular.
I was taking the cuius of "cuius causam" to refer to the the death, hence "death of such men, the cause of which ..."

If it were "quorum causam", I would understand it to be "whose cause", i.e. the cause of such men, so death of such men, whose cause ..."

But maybe you're right and it doesn't make a difference???
 

Ignis Umbra

Ignis Aeternus
I was taking the cuius of "cuius causam" to refer to the the death, hence "death of such men, the cause of which ..."
Whoops, yes, "death" as the antecedent would be more practical...
If it were "quorum causam", I would understand it to be "whose cause", i.e. the cause of such men, so death of such men, whose cause ..."
Right, sorry, another hiccup there. But yes, quorum would make the antecedent "men" rather than "death", and in that case the sentence wouldn't make sense.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
You're right, Limetrees, the antecedent of cuius is nece rather than exempli.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
Whoops, yes, "death" as the antecedent would be more practical...

Right, sorry, another hiccup there. But yes, quorum would make the antecedent "men" rather than "death", and in that case the sentence wouldn't make sense.
"quorum causam" would still make sense if we take "causam" as the cause/goal for which they died [he died a martyr for a good cause]

I'm just wondering whether one can get "whose cause" in this sense from the Latin as it stands - cuius causam.

You're right, Limetrees, the antecedent of cuius is nece rather than exempli.
Is it at all possible that the "cuius" could refer back to the "talium"?
 

Ignis Umbra

Ignis Aeternus
"quorum causam" would still make sense if we take "causam" as the cause/goal for which they died [he died a martyr for a good cause]
I wouldn't believe so, unless causa were ablative.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
"quorum causam" would still make sense if we take "causam" as the cause/goal for which they died [he died a martyr for a good cause]

I'm just wondering whether one can get "whose cause" in this sense from the Latin as it stands - cuius causam.
I can't say for sure, but I've never seen it in any case.
Is it at all possible that the "cuius" could refer back to the "talium"?
No, since talium is gen. pl. and cuius sg.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
No, since talium is gen. pl. and cuius sg.
I agree with you, but, oddly enough, the translations I've seen translate it as if the "causam" were the cause of the men, i.e. the good cause for which they were martyred.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I agree with you, but, oddly enough, the translations I've seen translate it as if the "causam" were the cause of the men, i.e. the good cause for which they were martyred.
Then it's a freer translation. Literally it's the cause of the men's death, what brought it about that they were killed, not the cause of the men, though I suppose both were closely associated in this context (the reason (= causam) why they were killed is that they defended a good cause (= just implied in the context)...), so I guess it's why the translator took the liberty of translating it as he did...
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
Thanks for the help so far.
But I've just started thinking more about the very next sentence.

Nemo sane ex eadem exemplum capere potest, nisi ad imitandum, vel saltem ad adulandum.
My translation at present:
No-one indeed can take from it anything but an example to be imitated or at least flattered.
But I've just found this in French:
Certes, nul n'y apprendra rien qu'à les imiter s'il ne veut aduler.
[No-one indeed can learn from it anything but to imitate them, unless one wants to flatter - my translation of the French: is it correct, or am I missing a nuance in "s'il ne veut"?].

The thing is the these men were killed because they were honest and could not live under censorship, and so could not "flatter/aduler".

Is Appuhn translation possible?? I hope it is cos I love it, and it is far better than the other option which would have people flattering the very ones who refused to flatter!
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
No, vel saltem ad adulandum clearly can't mean "s'il ne veut les aduler"; unless "s'il ne veut" have some special archaic meaning or whatever there that I myself don't know, it seems too far from the sentiment of the Latin.

It's "to imitate or at least to flatter", but I agree adulare is a strange choice of word here, because it usually has a rather bad connotation... I'd rather have expected something like laudare or revereri.

I think I get the connection there can be between "or at least" and "unless he wants" - they both express some option, but the former is more faithful to the sentiment.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
No, vel saltem ad adulandum clearly can't mean "s'il ne veut les aduler"; unless "s'il ne veut" have some special archaic meaning or whatever there that I myself don't know, it seems too far from the sentiment of the Latin.

It's "to imitate or at least to flatter", but I agree adulare is a strange choice of word here, because it usually has a rather bad connotation... I'd rather have expected something like laudare or revereri.

I think I get the connection there can be between "or at least" and "unless he wants" - they both express some option, but the former is more faithful to the sentiment.
I was afraid you were going to say this. But I do like Appuhn's sentiment, I must say, and yes, absolutely "ad adulandum" rings false here.

One word though: Appuhn writes "s'il ne veut aduler" and not "s'il ne veut LES aduler"
I think you're still right that it's not a real translation of he Latin, but you see what Appuhn is doing: he's saying you must imitate them or become a flatterer (of those in power!).

In fact (if I'm right) Appuhn is very far from the Latin, because "ad adulandum" goes with "exemplum", so it must be the example they are flattering.

Thanks again for the help.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Well I just agree with you. Ad adulandum, unless I'm going crazy, is clearly a prepositional phrase related to exemplum, yes.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
Can the phrase possibly mean:
"No-one indeed can take any example from it but that one should conform and flatter"
??
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Quite literally, it is "no one indeed can take (any) example from it but (an example) to imitate or at least to flatter."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I can't help thinking the author meant another sense for adulare than the one it classically has. More like "to venerate", "to praise"... It would fit so much better...
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
Yes, absolutely, but in the very same chapter he talks about "abominanda adulatio" and "avari,
adulatores, & reliqui impotentes animi," so doesn't at all have a positive sense of adulatio.

the other option is that nisi ad imitandum, vel saltem ad adulandum is saying that you can imitate their example or perhaps just emptily praise it (even though in fact you don't really respect the martyrs).
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Oooof yes, with all that preceding, the "unusual sense of the word" theory doesn't really stand.

You theory looks possible. I don't have a better one in any case.
 
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