quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra
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Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
The quo here is an interrogative adverb meaning literally "whither", as opposite eo "thither" and huc "hither". Taken together with usque, an intensifier used with lengths of space or time to mean something like "all the way" (cf. Ab ovis usque ad mala "from eggs all the way to apples"), and tandem "at last/in the end", it literally means "whither all the way in the end?" which sounds strange. But the idea is more or less "to what final extent?", i.e. "for how much longer?"
The quo here is an interrogative adverb meaning literally "whither", as opposite eo "thither" and huc "hither". Taken together with usque, an intensifier used with lengths of space or time to mean something like "all the way" (cf. Ab ovis usque ad mala "from eggs all the way to apples"), and tandem "at last/in the end", it literally means "whither all the way in the end?" which sounds strange. But the idea is more or less "to what final extent?", i.e. "for how much longer?"
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
 Applause.gif "(4) Applause :applause:")
You are at that level where you need to publish your own translation of the Aeneid or something....lol.
Also, I appreciate the fact that you take time out of your day to log-in and help us. I wish that I was able to reciprocate the gesture. You are someone who helps even though you don't receive much help in return, mainly because you seem to know more than most of us, commendable indeed. Thanks!
Imber, I want some of whatever you are on, because it must be awesome. Seriously, if they could bottle your wisdom, I would pay dearly for it......Imber Ranae dixit:
You are at that level where you need to publish your own translation of the Aeneid or something....lol.
Also, I appreciate the fact that you take time out of your day to log-in and help us. I wish that I was able to reciprocate the gesture. You are someone who helps even though you don't receive much help in return, mainly because you seem to know more than most of us, commendable indeed. Thanks!
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
I'm afraid it isn't quite precise.Imber Ranae dixit:
It turns out that it's just as unnecesary to parce quo usque as to do so with how long or how much.Lewis & Short dixit:
It turns out that in this case the word tandem is acting merely as an intensifier of the question, a means to add emotion to it; no need to translate it with at last.Lewis & Short dixit:
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
I'm sorry for not getting back to you all, I just started my first semester/year at Uni and started my first lessons on Attic Greek to boot, it's been very busy.
Need I say that you've all been a great help?
I'm sorry for not getting back to you all, I just started my first semester/year at Uni and started my first lessons on Attic Greek to boot, it's been very busy.
Hm...but is Imber Ranae's origin of the word correct? I better remember the meanings of the words if I know where they come from and quo + usque makes a lot of sense to me.
Need I say that you've all been a great help?
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
I majored in classical studies, but am not currently using my knowledge of Latin or Greek in a professional capacity. So mostly just an enthusiast who has kept up with his studies (somewhat).mattheus dixit:
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
But yes, as far as simply translating Cicero's Latin into English there's no real need to consider any of this. However, if you wish to appreciate the nuances between the mostly synonymous idioms employed by Cicero in his tricolon of rhetorical questions against Catiline (quo usque; quam diu; quem ad finem), understanding the variations of grammatical construction is often more satisfying than just lifting definitions straight from a lexicon.
I'm afraid you've missed the point. You may indeed consider quo-usque as a single word, for the sake of simplification or for purposes of categorization, but outside that there's no real compelling reason to do so. Consider that quo, even by itself, can mean "to what extent, how far" in addition to its primary meaning of "whither, to where". The usque merely colors the adverb's meaning by emphasizing extent/duration over destination as the important factor. In this way it's not so much different from a phrase like usque ab Romulo "since the time of Romulus". I believe as such that they are clearly separable lexemes, as is not the case with quoad, for example, even though the latter's derivation be simply quo + ad. It should also be kept in mind that the temporal aspect of the idiom is a direct extension of its original spatial signification, which it retains in certain contexts.Quasus dixit:
Why would you think it unnecessary to parse "how long?" or "how much"? Both are very straightforward, intuitive constructions: "how" as an interrogative adverbial modifier that asks the extent or degree to which any adjective or adverb it may modify applies, e.g. "how lonely?", "how intrepidly?" The direct Latin equivalent, quam + [adj/adv], is used by Cicero in the very next sentence of the famous oration in question: quam diu is essentially just a variation of quo usque from the previous sentence. And once again, some texts represent it as a single word, quamdiu, even though they would never do the same with a parallel construction like "how enviously": quaminvidiose would look absurd.Quasus dixit:
But yes, as far as simply translating Cicero's Latin into English there's no real need to consider any of this. However, if you wish to appreciate the nuances between the mostly synonymous idioms employed by Cicero in his tricolon of rhetorical questions against Catiline (quo usque; quam diu; quem ad finem), understanding the variations of grammatical construction is often more satisfying than just lifting definitions straight from a lexicon.
I agree there's no need to translate it as temporal here. It makes more sense as an intensifier in this context, though that doesn't necessarily rule out a temporal aspect to it as well.Quasus dixit:
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
Quidnam tibi vis cum dicis 'discutemus'? Nonne voluisti 'disputabamus' dicere?Quasus dixit:
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
Thanks to your help, and the help of some classmates, I think I've got the rough idea of the translation. I've bolded some phrases that I'm not too sure about.
I. Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia? Nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae, nihil timor populi, nihil concursus bonorum omnium, nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus, nihil horum ora voltusque moverunt? Patere tua consilia non sentis, constrictam iam horum omnium scientia teneri coniurationem tuam non vides? Quid proxima, quid superiore nocte egeris, ubi fueris, quos convocaveris, quid consilii ceperis, quem nostrum ignorare arbitraris?
How long then, Catilina, will you continue to abuse our patience? For how much long will that insanity of yours still mock us? To what end will your wild recklessness keep pushing itself? Are there no nightly guards of the Palatium who have moved you? No watchers of the city, no terror of the people? No panic of every good man, no well-fortified place of this senate that should be mustered, no expressions and countenances have moved you? Don't you realise that your plans lie wide open, do you not see that your conspiracy is now tightly held in the knowledge of all those here? What you did last night, what you have done on the prior day, where you have been, with whom you have conspired, what plan you have drawn up, do you imagine that we are ignorant of these actions?
O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec intellegit. Consul videt; hic tamen vivit. Vivit? immo vero etiam in senatum venit, fit publici consilii particeps, notat et designat oculis ad caedem unum quemque nostrum. Nos autem fortes viri satis facere rei publicae videmur, si istius furorem ac tela vitemus. Ad mortem te, Catilina, duci iussu consulis iam pridem oportebat, in te conferri pestem, quam tu in nos omnes iam diu machinaris.
Oh the time, oh the conduct of our age! The Senate knows all this. The Consul can see this; and yet Catilina lives. He lives? No, in fact he even comes into the senate, is made a sharer of public decisions, all the while he records and marks out with his eyes each one of us for death. We, men of courage, seem to do enough of our duty of the state, if we avoid the anger and weapons of this man. Once, it used to be necessary that you would be lead to your death in accordance with the law of the Consuls, that ruin would be heaped upon you, because you plotted for a long time against us.
I've seen videtur but videmur has to be a first for me. Is my translation correct, or is it 'we seem to be brave men...'?
Just how famous was this speech in the Roman era? I heard that children were taught to copy Cicero's rhetorical skill at school.
Thanks to your help, and the help of some classmates, I think I've got the rough idea of the translation. I've bolded some phrases that I'm not too sure about.
I. Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia? Nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae, nihil timor populi, nihil concursus bonorum omnium, nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus, nihil horum ora voltusque moverunt? Patere tua consilia non sentis, constrictam iam horum omnium scientia teneri coniurationem tuam non vides? Quid proxima, quid superiore nocte egeris, ubi fueris, quos convocaveris, quid consilii ceperis, quem nostrum ignorare arbitraris?
How long then, Catilina, will you continue to abuse our patience? For how much long will that insanity of yours still mock us? To what end will your wild recklessness keep pushing itself? Are there no nightly guards of the Palatium who have moved you? No watchers of the city, no terror of the people? No panic of every good man, no well-fortified place of this senate that should be mustered, no expressions and countenances have moved you? Don't you realise that your plans lie wide open, do you not see that your conspiracy is now tightly held in the knowledge of all those here? What you did last night, what you have done on the prior day, where you have been, with whom you have conspired, what plan you have drawn up, do you imagine that we are ignorant of these actions?
O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec intellegit. Consul videt; hic tamen vivit. Vivit? immo vero etiam in senatum venit, fit publici consilii particeps, notat et designat oculis ad caedem unum quemque nostrum. Nos autem fortes viri satis facere rei publicae videmur, si istius furorem ac tela vitemus. Ad mortem te, Catilina, duci iussu consulis iam pridem oportebat, in te conferri pestem, quam tu in nos omnes iam diu machinaris.
Oh the time, oh the conduct of our age! The Senate knows all this. The Consul can see this; and yet Catilina lives. He lives? No, in fact he even comes into the senate, is made a sharer of public decisions, all the while he records and marks out with his eyes each one of us for death. We, men of courage, seem to do enough of our duty of the state, if we avoid the anger and weapons of this man. Once, it used to be necessary that you would be lead to your death in accordance with the law of the Consuls, that ruin would be heaped upon you, because you plotted for a long time against us.
I've seen videtur but videmur has to be a first for me. Is my translation correct, or is it 'we seem to be brave men...'?
Just how famous was this speech in the Roman era? I heard that children were taught to copy Cicero's rhetorical skill at school.
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
Habendi senatus is a gerundive phrase in the genitive, being an objective genitive dependent on munitissimus...locus [senatus has a long 'u' here]. Thus it means, literally, "the most fortified place for the senate being held". The gerundive here doesn't imply necessity or obligation like the gerundive + esse would.
Here's how I'd translate that last sentence, as literally as possible: "You ought to have already long ago been led to death by order of the consul, to have the destruction inflicted upon you which you have been plotting against us for a long time now."
Nihil is functioning here, as often, in the capacity of a strong negating adverb "not all all". Rather than translating it "no", I'd say "Has the nightly garrison of the Palatine Hill affected you not at all, the watch on the city not at all, the fear of the people not at all, the meeting of all the good men not at all, this place most well-fortified for the convening of the senate not at all, the faces and expressions of these men not at all?"Nooj dixit:
Habendi senatus is a gerundive phrase in the genitive, being an objective genitive dependent on munitissimus...locus [senatus has a long 'u' here]. Thus it means, literally, "the most fortified place for the senate being held". The gerundive here doesn't imply necessity or obligation like the gerundive + esse would.
Proxima is going with an implied nocte from the following clause, so it means "what you did last night, what you did the night before [lit. higher/above] that". If it were "day" it would be proximo. Convocaveris means "you called together/summoned". And it's not "do you imagine we" but rather "whom of us do you imagine": nostrum is partitive genitive modifying quem "whom".
Rei publicae is actually dative "we, brave men, seem to do enough for the republic, if...". Furorem is probably closer to "madness" than "anger".
Here's how I'd translate that last sentence, as literally as possible: "You ought to have already long ago been led to death by order of the consul, to have the destruction inflicted upon you which you have been plotting against us for a long time now."
I thing it says a lot that more of Cicero's writings have survived to the present day than of any other ancient author.
Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
Gratias maximas tibi ago, adhuc tiro linguae Latinae sum...sed talia vita est. Tongue.gif "(1) Tongue out :p")
habeo secundam quaestionem. Cicero dicit: non deest rei publicae consilium neque auctoritas huius ordinis.
Neither the council nor the sanction of this order is lacking to the Republic.
I can't wrap my head around what he means by this.
Gratias maximas tibi ago, adhuc tiro linguae Latinae sum...sed talia vita est.
habeo secundam quaestionem. Cicero dicit: non deest rei publicae consilium neque auctoritas huius ordinis.
Neither the council nor the sanction of this order is lacking to the Republic.
I can't wrap my head around what he means by this.
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Re: amabo te si iuvabis me
I suppose ordo refers to a social class here ... where does he say so?
I suppose ordo refers to a social class here ... where does he say so?