Reading Cicero - need recommendations

[Callaina]

Next (also rather confusing) part

(12) Hic tu, Africane, ostendas oportebit patriae lumen animi, ingenii consiliique tui. Sed eius temporis ancipitem video quasi fatorum viam. Nam cum aetas tua septenos octiens solis anfractus reditusque converterit duoque hi numeri, quorum uterque plenus alter altera de causa habetur, circuitu naturali summam tibi fatalem confecerint, in te unum atque in tuum nomen se tota convertet civitas; te senatus, te omnes boni, te socii, te Latini intuebuntur; tu eris unus, in quo nitatur civitatis salus, ac, ne multa, dictator rem publicam constituas oportet, si impias propinquorum manus effugeris.'"
Hic cum exclamasset Laelius ingemuissentque vehementius ceteri: "St! Quaeso", inquit, "Ne me ex somno excitetis et parumper audite cetera!

"'Then it will be necessary for you, Africanus, to extend the light of your spirit and of your brilliant counsel to the nation. But I see of this time* an two-pronged [uncertain] path, only partly fated**. For when your age has reached seven eightfold circuits and returnings of the sun [i.e. 56 years] and these two numbers [or, two of this number (of years)] [.....]*** will have brought about by the natural circle [of fate] the completion of your destiny, all the citizens will turn to you and your name; the senate, all good men, the Latin lands and allies shall admire you; you will be one in whom the safety of the populace will rest, and -- not much more [or not long after?]**** -- it is fitting that you as dictator should order the Republic, if you have [first] escaped the impious hands of your kindred.'"
Here, as Laelius had exclaimed and the others lamented vehemently: "Shh! Please," he [Scipio] said, "do not rouse me from my dream and, for a little while, attend to the remainder!"

* Literally "of his/her/its time", but that's very vague: the country's time? The soul's? The light?
** My best guess for quasi fatorum, though I really have no idea what idea this connects to -- the seeing ("like of the Fates")? the path?
*** I really had no clue about this part, and finally I gave in and checked the two translations Pacis puella linked to, but I remain unenlightened...
"these two numbers (each of which is held to be perfect, the one from a different reason to the other)..."
"with the different qualities attached to the numbers of 7 and 8, multiplied by each other, which compose the foregoing sum,..."
Help, please?? Can someone break this down for me?
**** Also confusing.

 

[malleolus]

Next (also rather confusing) part

(12) Hic tu, Africane, ostendas oportebit patriae lumen animi, ingenii consiliique tui. Sed eius temporis ancipitem video quasi fatorum viam. Nam cum aetas tua septenos octiens solis anfractus reditusque converterit duoque hi numeri, quorum uterque plenus alter altera de causa habetur, circuitu naturali summam tibi fatalem confecerint, in te unum atque in tuum nomen se tota convertet civitas; te senatus, te omnes boni, te socii, te Latini intuebuntur; tu eris unus, in quo nitatur civitatis salus, ac, ne multa, dictator rem publicam constituas oportet, si impias propinquorum manus effugeris.'"
Hic cum exclamasset Laelius ingemuissentque vehementius ceteri: "St! Quaeso", inquit, "Ne me ex somno excitetis et parumper audite cetera!

"'Then it will be necessary for you, Africanus, to extend the light of your spirit and of your brilliant counsel to the nation. But I see of this time* an two-pronged [uncertain] path, only partly fated**. For when your age has reached seven eightfold circuits and returnings of the sun [i.e. 56 years] and these two numbers [or, two of this number (of years)] [.....]*** will have brought about by the natural circle [of fate] the completion of your destiny, all the citizens will turn to you and your name; the senate, all good men, the Latin lands and allies shall admire you; you will be one in whom the safety of the populace will rest, and -- not much more [or not long after?]**** -- it is fitting that you as dictator should order the Republic, if you have [first] escaped the impious hands of your kindred.'"
Here, as Laelius had exclaimed and the others lamented vehemently: "Shh! Please," he [Scipio] said, "do not rouse me from my dream and, for a little while, attend to the remainder!"

quasi fatorum: I see that at that time the path , so to speak , which the fates destine for you, will be a critical one.


Sorry, am in a hurry right now - will be back later.

 

[Callaina]

quasi fatorum: I see that at that time the path , so to speak , which the fates destine for you, will be a critical one.


Sorry, am in a hurry right now - will be back later.

No worries! Thanks in advance

Next bit. This part was mostly a lot easier, except for a couple spots:

(13) 'Sed quo sis, Africane, alacrior ad tutandam rem publicam, sic habeto, omnibus, qui patriam conservaverint, adiuverint, auxerint, certum esse in caelo definitum locum, ubi beati aevo sempiterno fruantur; nihil est enim illi principi deo, qui omnem mundum regit, quod quidem in terris fiat, acceptius quam concilia coetusque hominum iure sociati, quae 'civitates' appellantur; harum rectores et conservatores hinc profecti huc revertuntur.'

(14) Hic ego, etsi eram perterritus non tam mortis metu quam insidiarum a meis, quaesivi tamen, viveretne ipse et Paulus pater et alii, quos nos exstinctos arbitraremur. 'Immo vero', inquit, 'hi vivunt, qui e corporum vinculis tamquam e carcere evolaverunt, vestra vero, quae dicitur, vita mors est. Quin tu aspicis ad te venientem Paulum patrem?' Quem ut vidi, equidem vim lacrimarum profudi, ille autem me complexus atque osculans flere prohibebat.

But -- by which you, Africanus, may be more eager to guard the Republic -- know there thus to be, for all who will have defended, aided, and strengthened their country, a fixed, settled place in the sky, where the blessed ones enjoy an everlasting eternity; surely there is nothing ever caused to happen on Earth, by that chief God who rules all the world, more pleasing than the meetings and unions of these people, belonging to an association united by justice*, who are called "citizens"; the rulers and defenders of which [i.e. the citizens], having previously departed from this place, return here.

Here I -- although I was terrified by the fear, not so much of death as of the plots set by my kindred -- yet asked him, whether he and (my?) father Paulus and the others, who we would consider dead, yet lived. "Truly, indeed," he said, "they live, they who have flown from the chains of the body as from a prison; truly is your life said to be death.** Indeed, do you see your father Paulus coming toward you?" When I saw, I immediately wept an abundance of tears, but he embraced me and, kissing me, forbade me to weep.

*This was my best guess at iure sociati, but I'm definitely not sure about this.
** Not sure about the syntax here either, though I think I've got the gist.

 

[Imber Ranae]

acceptius is a comparative adverb here: 'more agreeably than do...'
iure sociati = 'united by/under law'.

vero = but/however
literally: 'but your what is called life is [in fact] death'

 

[Callaina]

acceptius is a comparative adverb here: 'more agreeably than do...'
iure sociati = 'united by/under law'.

But sociati is nominative and hominum is genitive, so what is united under law? The meetings and unions mentioned earlier, I guess?

vero = but/however
literally: 'but your what is called life is [in fact] death'

Ah, ok -- "but your [yet unnamed feminine thing] -- which is called -- life, is in fact death." Confusing, but I see how it works.

 

[Pacifica]

Let's finish answering the previous bit first:

animi, ingenii consiliique tui
of your spirit and of your brilliant counsel

Ingenii and consilii are both nouns (linked by - que, "and", on the last one).

duoque hi numeri
and these two numbers [or, two of this number (of years)]

"These two numbers" (presumably seven and eight...).

quorum uterque plenus alter altera de causa habetur
[.....]

Either of which is/both of which are considered full each for a different reason.

Don't ask me what exactly it's referring to, I know nothing about maths.

circuitu naturali summam tibi fatalem confecerint
*** will have brought about by the natural circle [of fate] the completion of your destiny

I think summam fatalem should translate as "fateful/fated sum" or something like that, not sure what English adjective would be most appropriate. When the numbers have made/completed that sum.

in te unum atque in tuum nomen se tota convertet civitas
all the citizens will turn to you and your name

all the state will turn to you alone (unum) and your name

te senatus, te omnes boni, te socii, te Latini intuebuntur
the senate, all good men, the Latin lands and allies shall admire you

Latini are properly people rather than lands and intuebuntur is rather "shall gaze upon" (figuratively, i.e. all their attention will be on him and what he does etc.).

tu eris unus, in quo nitatur civitatis salus
you will be one in whom the safety of the populace will rest

"You will be the only one".
"State" rather than "populace".

ne multa
not much more [or not long after?]

Dicam is implied. Literally "so that (I do) not (say) many things/words", i.e. "to be short".

dictator rem publicam constituas oportet
it is fitting that you as dictator should order the Republic

Or more naturally, "you must order the Republic as dictator".

si impias propinquorum manus effugeris.
if you have [first] escaped the impious hands of your kindred.

Wouldn't "if you escape" sound more natural?

 

[Imber Ranae]

But sociati is nominative and hominum is genitive, so what is united under law? The meetings and unions mentioned earlier, I guess?

Yes, it agrees with coetus as the nearest.

 

[Callaina]

Latini are properly people rather than lands and intuebuntur is rather "shall gaze upon" (figuratively, i.e. all their attention will be on him and what he does etc.)

I considered that, but Perseus gave "regard with admiration, admire" as a possible meaning and that made as much/more sense to me here (given all the great things that Scipio will have accomplished, his qualities, etc...)

Re: civitas, civitatis: this word seems to have a lot of potential meanings (state, citizens, people, populace) and apparently I keep translating it wrong. Any pointers in general?

Wouldn't "if you escape" sound more natural?

But it's future perfect...

Oh, and thank you both as always for the help. Much appreciated!

 

[Imber Ranae]

Oh, and thank you both as always for the help. Much appreciated!

No problem. I only checked specifically the parts you highlighted as difficult for you, BTW, not your whole translation.

 

[Pacifica]

I considered that, but Perseus gave "regard with admiration, admire" as a possible meaning and that made as much/more sense to me here (given all the great things that Scipio will have accomplished, his qualities, etc...)

I don't know, my interpretation just feels more natural to me given the context. It seems more likely that he means he's the one everyone's attention will be turned to (since the safety of all will depend on him and what he does) rather than the one everyone will respect (this doesn't seem to fit equally well with the rest).

Re: civitas, civitatis: this word seems to have a lot of potential meanings (state, citizens, people, populace) and apparently I keep translating it wrong. Any pointers in general?

Perhaps other translations can be appropriate in more particular/rarer contexts, but the two basic meanings are "citizenship" and "state", the former of which just seems the most straightforward here.

But it's future perfect...

Yes, but I mean in English, wouldn't you more naturally say "if you escape" than "if you have escaped"? It's a question.

 

[Callaina]

Yes, but I mean in English, wouldn't you more naturally say "if you escape" than "if you have escaped"? It's a question.

Definitely more natural, but it doesn't convey the sequence of events so well.

 

[Imber Ranae]

civitas can mean either the state in a more abstract sense, or more concretely the body politic.

 

[Pacifica]

As so does English "state", no?

 

[Callaina]

As so does English "state", no?

Rather more the former, I think - the state as an institution/governing body. To me "the state will look to you" suggests that it's those in charge looking to him -- not the citizens en masse/the general populace.

 

[Pacifica]

Here's concerning the first paragraph of the last bit you posted:

Sed quo sis, Africane, alacrior ad tutandam rem publicam
But -- by which you, Africanus, may be more eager to guard the Republic

It's literally "by which", yes, but it can be translated as "so that you...". Quo is used to introduce a purpose clause.

sic habeto, omnibus, qui patriam conservaverint, adiuverint, auxerint, certum esse in caelo definitum locum
know there thus to be, for all who will have defended, aided, and strengthened their country, a fixed, settled place in the sky

Note that conservaverint, adiuverint, auxerint are perfect subjunctive, because of indirect discourse. I guess there can be a doubt whether they would have been perfect indicative or future perfect if it were direct speech.

ubi beati aevo sempiterno fruantur
where the blessed ones enjoy an everlasting eternity

Beati seems to be a predicative adjective agreeing with the implied subject "they" rather than a substantivized adjective being itself subject. Literally: "where they happy enjoy an everlasting age/time", but what seems to me the best way to render the idea in English would be to use an adverb: "where they happily enjoy...". Latin sometimes uses adjectives with adverbial force (well, English does too, but a bit less often) where English would more naturally use an adverb.
(and "everlasting eternity", gosh, what a pleonasm ).

nihil est enim illi principi deo, qui omnem mundum regit, quod quidem in terris fiat, acceptius quam concilia coetusque hominum iure sociati, quae 'civitates' appellantur
surely there is nothing ever caused to happen on Earth, by that chief God who rules all the world, more pleasing than the meetings and unions of these people, belonging to an association united by justice*, who are called "citizens"

acceptius is a comparative adverb here: 'more agreeably than do...'

No, acceptius is an adjective here.

"For there is nothing more pleasing to that chief god who rules all the world, at any rate (nothing) that happens on earth, than the assemblies and unions of people united by law that are called "states"."

harum rectores et conservatores
the rulers and defenders of which

Note that harum isn't a relative (which would be quarum); it's the gen. fem. pl. of hic, haec, hoc, "this", so it's more exactly "the rulers and defenders of these".

I'll have a look at the rest later.

 

[Imber Ranae]

Oops, I should have read the whole sentence rather than just starting with the relative clause. It's difficult to grant something the undivided attention it deserves when you're in the middle of other things (I was at work).

 

[Pacifica]

starting with the relative clause.

I figured that was what you'd done.

 

[Callaina]

Here's concerning the first paragraph of the last bit you posted:
It's literally "by which", yes, but it can be translated as "so that you...". Quo is used to introduce a purpose clause.

Is it used just as ut would be, then (I mean how ut is used in a purpose clause specifically, not in general)?

Note that conservaverint, adiuverint, auxerint are perfect subjunctive, because of indirect discourse. I guess there can be a doubt whether they would have been perfect indicative or future perfect if it were direct speech.

Oh, ok -- I hadn't fully grasped that any clause within the indirect discourse section needs the subjunctive (probably because I never had to construct/read such a sentence before), but now I remember you mentioning that.

(and "everlasting eternity", gosh, what a pleonasm ).

Well, aevum can mean eternity, but I suppose "age" would be better; I guess I thought the repetition was for emphasis.

"For there is nothing more pleasing to that chief god who rules all the world, at any rate (nothing) that happens on earth, than the assemblies and unions of people united by law that are called "states"."

Oh, so enim here introduces an explanation ("for" more than "surely" or "indeed"). Ok, that makes a lot more sense and explains why these particular individuals are in this heavenly realm (because they defended, maintained, etc. these states) rather than describing the blessed people meeting in the heavenly realm.

 

[Pacifica]

Is it used just as ut would be, then (I mean how ut is used in a purpose clause specifically, not in general)?

It's similar, yes.

Oh, ok -- I hadn't fully grasped that any clause within the indirect discourse section needs the subjunctive

Any clause that's an integral part of what the person whose speech/thought is reported says/thinks, etc. Because there can be a clause inserted within indirect discourse, but only adding information on the author's part; in which case it doesn't take the subjunctive (except maybe sometimes by attraction...?).

E.g.

Dixit se a Iulio, qui illo die cenatum venisset, percussum virga esse = "He said that he had been beaten with a rod by Julius, who had come on that day to have dinner" ---> He actually said: "Julius, who had come on that day etc., beat me with a rod".

Dixit se a Iulio, qui illo die cenatum venerat, percussum virga esse = same translation, but he actually said only "I was beaten by Julius with a rod" and I, who am reporting his speech, add as a piece of supplementary information on my own part that Julius had come on that day to have dinner.

 

[Imber Ranae]

Is it used just as ut would be, then (I mean howut is used in a purpose clause specifically, not in general)?

It's frequently used instead of ut when there's a comparative involved, much like 'the better to' in English, where 'the' is an fact the remnant of an old instrumental relative pronoun.