Reading Cicero - need recommendations

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
But "obedient" or "compliant" lusts/pleasures doesn't make much sense, either - they sound out of control, not obedient.
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
But "obedient" or "compliant" lusts/pleasures doesn't make much sense, either - they sound out of control, not obedient.
The verb takes a dative object: 'At the impulse/prompting of passions/inclinations that are obedient/subject to pleasures' or something like that.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Sunt autem optimae curae de salute patriae
And they [i.e. the greatest things] are the greatest pains taken for the well-being of the nation
I rather take it as "and the best cares/pains/objects of care are (those) concerning the well-being of the nation".
Optimus is "best" rather than "greatest" in size or extent.
hanc sedem et domum suam
this abode and its home
Hanc and suam both modify both nouns: "to this abode and home of its/which is its (own)".
si iam tum, cum erit inclusus in corpore
if even now -- though still confined in the body
Tum = "then".
Iam = "now" or "already" (here the latter).
If it were "though" you'd have the subjunctive in the cum clause.
"If already (then,) when it is confined in the body..."
extra
beyond
"Outside."
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Hanc and suam both modify both nouns: "to this abode and home of its/which is its (own)".
I remember a sentence just a few paragraphs ago that did something similar, and I actually considered this possibility here, but I wasn't sure (and still don't know) how to determine whether this is the case, or if two separate ideas are being expressed. How can you know for sure? If domus and sedes weren't both feminine, the adjectives couldn't cross-modify (I'm sure there's a better term, but I don't know it) each other like this, and it would have to be two separate ideas; so how can one assume that they're meant to be connected like this?

"Outside."
"Reach outside" seems very odd here, in English. You can't literally reach outside of your body, and something about the imagery feels off. Isn't he talking more in a figurative sense anyway (like not trying to have an out-of-body experience but rather striving for things that are "higher" or "purer" than bodily pleasures, etc.)?

Edit: Oops, I was looking at the wrong bit of the sentence; but "those things that are outside" doesn't sound any better in English; in fact it almost sounds worse (like things that are outside one's house, or something.)
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
The verb takes a dative object: 'At the impulse/prompting of passions/inclinations that are obedient/subject to pleasures' or something like that.
That makes a great deal more sense -- thanks. :)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I remember a sentence just a few paragraphs ago that did something similar, and I actually considered this possibility here, but I wasn't sure (and still don't know) how to determine whether this is the case, or if two separate ideas are being expressed. How can you know for sure?
I can't know for sure I guess because in theory it could be either, but it just feels more natural like this to me. The context actually suggests that the abode and the home are the same thing (i.e. that place in heaven), doesn't it?
If domus and sedes weren't both feminine, the adjectives couldn't cross-modify
Actually I think they could; they could each agree with the noun closest to them but modify both in meaning. I'm not sure I've actually met the situation, in fact, or I didn't notice and I don't remember; but since that's what happens when there's only one adjective (it agrees with the closest noun but modifies the whole list in meaning; e.g. vox, crinis, oculi tui mihi placent, "I like your voice, hair and eyes"), why not when there's one on either end... To be verified I guess.
"Reach outside" seems very odd here, in English. You can't literally reach outside of your body, and something about the imagery feels off. Isn't he talking more in a figurative sense anyway (like not trying to have an out-of-body experience but rather striving for things that are "higher" or "purer" than bodily pleasures, etc.)?

Edit: Oops, I was looking at the wrong bit of the sentence; but "those things that are outside" doesn't sound any better in English; in fact it almost sounds worse (like things that are outside one's house, or something.)
Mmm... I don't know, but he really seems to mean "outside", as opposed to inside the body, which is compared to a prison in which the soul is like locked up (si iam tum, cum erit inclusus in corpore, eminebit foras et ea, quae extra erunt...)...
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Actually I think they could; they could each agree with the noun closest to them but modify both in meaning.
Interesting, I didn't know that was possible. I guess it just depends on context and what makes sense in the passage, then?

Mmm... I don't know, but he really seems to mean "outside", as opposed to inside the body, which is compared to a prison in which the mind is like locked up (si iam tum, cum erit inclusus in corpore, eminebit foras et ea, quae extra erunt...)...
True, good point!
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
Domus and sedes frequently go together as a single thought.
 

Charlie Parker

New Member
I am having difficulty with this passage in the Somnium Scipionis.
Quare et tibi, Publi, et piis omnibus retinendus animus est in custodia corporis nec iniussu eius, a quo ille est vobis datus, ex hominum vita migrandum est,
It seems that migrandum is in the accusative, but it should agree with animus, masculine nominative singular, taken up by ille.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
This looks like an impersonal passive to me: "there must not be departing from the life of human beings" = "one must not depart".
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
It might also be worth adding that it would be rather improbable for it to be in the nominative anyway, since migro is generally intransitive and therefore not usually used in the passive in anything but the sort of impersonal usage discussed above. L&S lists a few examples of it being used transitively, but they're pretty rare.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
it would be rather improbable for it to be in the nominative anyway
But it is in the nominative...
since migro is generally intransitive and therefore not usually used in the passive in anything but the sort of impersonal usage discussed above.
Yes, the impersonal passive is the only construction where the gerundive (or any other passive form) of this verb usually exists at all.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Ah. Well, then, yes, you're perfectly right.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Come to think of it, it's pretty much the same in English; it would sound rather weird to say that something or someone "must not be migrated". The meaning's perfectly clear, but it isn't standard usage.
 
Bird lives.
 
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