Segregatio autem vel evocatio

MichaelJYoo

Member
If anyone would be willing to check if my translation is accurate it would be so much appreciated.

"Segregatio autem vel evocatio haec, electio sive selectio appellatur duplici fere de causa: vel, quia e communi hominum caetu populi saepe nonnulli aliis quibusdam certo consilio divino praeteritis et relictis, uti in electione proprie dicta fieri solet, evocantur et quasi eximuntur ad audiendum, et sic ad participandum Evangelii gratiam singularem, sive evocationi illi divinae morem gerant, quo sensu 1 ad Cor 1.26,27, stulta, infirma, ignobilia mundo, elegisse, dicitur Deus, id est, evocasse ita, ut obedirent Deo vocanti, vel saltem obedire se professi sint, et hoc sensu vox electorum in Scripturis non raro accipitur; sive ad obediendum Evangelio a Deo tantum invitentur."

This separation or summoning, election or choice, is generally deemed (such) from a twofold cause: either, because some from the common mass of the human race by a fixed divine counsel are removed from those who have been abandoned and passed by, and summoned to hearing and partaking of the special grace of the Gospel; (Either that they might submit themselves to that divine call; this is usually taken as election properly speaking, and in this sense God is said in 1 Corinthians 1:26-27 to have chosen the foolish, weak, and base things, that is, to have called them that they might yield obedience to His call or at least have professed themselves to obey. The word "elect" is not rarely taken in this sense in the Scriptures. Or they are called to obedience to the gospel by God alone
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
election or choice
Why not "election or selection"? The meaning doesn't differ much but I think "selection" matches the register better, and it also preserves the similarity of electio and selectio.
This separation or summoning, election or choice, is generally deemed (such) from a twofold cause
At first sight it looks more like "This segregation or calling out is called election or selection for a twofold reason".
some from the common mass of the human race by a fixed divine counsel are removed from those who have been abandoned and passed by, and summoned to hearing and partaking of the special grace of the Gospel
"often, some peoples are called out and, as it were, removed from the common mass of the human race, as happens in election properly speaking, so that they may hear and thus partake in the special grace of the Gospel, while some other peoples are disregarded and left behind through a certain divine judgement"
this is usually taken as election properly speaking, and in this sense God is said in 1 Corinthians 1:26-27 to have chosen the foolish, weak, and base things,
"in the sense in which, in 1 Corinthians 1:26-27, God is said to have chosen the foolish, weak and base things"

The part about "election properly speaking" doesn't belong here at all, but in the previous bit, as you can see in my translation.
(Either that they might submit themselves ... Or they are called to obedience to the gospel by God alone
"whether they submit themselves... or whether they are only* called..."

*Tantum goes with invitentur, not with Deo.
The word "elect" is not rarely taken in this sense in the Scriptures.
Unless you entirely reorginize the passage by splitting it into several self-contained sentences to make it easier to read, this part should be a parenthesis, because the sentence isn't finished yet.

Are you aware that you haven't actually quoted the whole sentence?
 

MichaelJYoo

Member
Unless you entirely reorginize the passage by splitting it into several self-contained sentences to make it easier to read, this part should be a parenthesis, because the sentence isn't finished yet.

Are you aware that you haven't actually quoted the whole sentence?
[/QUOTE]

Yes I'm sorry about that. The rest should help clarify. It reads as follows:

"Sive ad obediendum Evangelio a Deo tantum invitentur: qua ratione de Gentilibus dicitur passim, quod rejectis Iudaeis ipsi electi a Deo, id est, vocati sint ad obediendum Evangelio, & sic ad beneficia Evangelio promissa consequendum ea ratione ac via, quae Evangelio continetur ac praescribitur: sive denique vocationi jam factae refragentur; quo sensu diligi adhuc Iudaei increduli dicuntur secundum electionem Rom. 11 & passim populus Israeliticus non obstante eo, quod rebellione & contumacia sua Deum subinde fatigaret, electus tamen Dei populus passim in V.T. vocatur. Vel, quia totus aliquis populus, qui antea expers fuerat gratiae & vocationis Evangelicae, quasi ex communi & vulgari illo statu (citra ullam ad alios populos praeteritos relationem) evocatur & eximitur ad participandum excellentem & priore longe digniorem statum: quo sensu Gentiles Apostolus Petrus 1 Epist. 2:9 "γένος ἐκλεκτόν" appellat, quia cum antea populus non essent, populus facti erant, uti versu sequenti exponitur."

"Or whether they are only called to obedience to the Gospel by God: for which reason it is said everywhere of the Gentiles that with the Jews having been rejected, they themselves have been chosen by God, that is, that they have been called to obedience to the Gospel and thus to attaining the benefits promised in the Gospel by that manner and way which the Gospel contains and prescribes: even if they are now resistant to the calling; in which sense the incredulous Jews are still said to be loved "concerning election" (Rom 11) and the Israelite people, notwithstanding their vexation of God again and again by their rebellion and contumacy, is everywhere called the people of God in the Old Testament. Or (referring to the second reason of the "dupliciter"), because some entire group of people who had previously been without the grace and call of the Gospel is summoned and separated from the common and vulgar state (without any relation to other people who have been passed by) to participating in an excellent and more worthy state: in which sense the Apostle Peter addresses the Gentiles in 1 Peter 2:9 as γένος ἐκλεκτόν because when they were formerly not a people, they had (now) been made a people, as is explained in the following verse."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I didn't personally need you to post the rest of the sentence because I had found it on Google, but I wanted to make sure you were aware that you shouldn't take what you had first posted as a self-contained whole, since it wasn't complete.

Do you also need help with the second part? I'll take a look at it later if needed.
 

MichaelJYoo

Member
That would be amazing, yes.

I also just wanted to say thank you so much for all your help. You have a real talent in making sense of sentences and rendering them in such a fluid and elegant way. I hope to do a PhD in the future involving Latin theological text and I know that I need to improve a lot to even make that a possibility. Would you be able to recommend me any sources or translation tips that I can use to become as proficient at Latin as yourself? I hate to be an annoyance by continuously posting on the forum for help.
 

MichaelJYoo

Member
Based on the help you gave me, I believe the whole thing should be taken as follows--or something to this effect:

"This segregation or calling out is called election or selection for a twofold reason: either because some peoples are called out and, as it were, removed from the common mass of the human race, as happens in election properly speaking, so that they may hear and thus partake in the special grace of the Gospel, while some other peoples are disregarded and passed by through a certain divine judgment, whether they submit themselves to that divine call, in the sense in which, in 1 Corinthians 1:26-27, God is said to have chosen the foolish, weak, and base things; that is, to have called them in such a way that they submit themselves, or at least have professed themselves to obey, and the word "elect" is not rarely taken in this sense in the Scriptures; or whether they are only called by God: for which reason it is said everywhere concerning the Gentiles that with the Jews having been rejected, they themselves have been chosen by God, that is, they have been called to obedience to the Gospel and thus to attaining the benefits promised in the Gospel by that manner and way which is contained and prescribed in the Gospel; or whether they are resistant to the calling, in which sense the incredulous Jews are still said to be loved "concerning election" (Romans 11) and the Israelite people, notwithstanding their vexation of God again and again by their rebellion and contumacy, is everywhere called the people of God in the Old Testament. The other reason is because some entire group of people who had previously been without the grace and call of the Gospel, is summoned and separated from that common and vulgar state (without any relation to other people who have been passed by) to participating [in] an excellent and more worthy state. In this sense the Apostle Peter addresses the Gentiles in 1 Peter 2:9 as "γένος ἐκλεκτόν" because when they were formerly not a people, they had (now) been made a people, as is explained in the following verse."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I also just wanted to say thank you so much for all your help. You have a real talent in making sense of sentences and rendering them in such a fluid and elegant way.
Thanks!
I hope to do a PhD in the future involving Latin theological text and I know that I need to improve a lot to even make that a possibility. Would you be able to recommend me any sources or translation tips that I can use to become as proficient at Latin as yourself?
I'm not sure. As far as I personally am concerned, what led me to proficiency in Latin, after having learned the basics of grammar, was mostly just practice, especially reading. This forum helped a lot, too! Beside Latin knowledge per se, translation is also a skill that's honed mostly with practice.
This segregation or calling out is called election or selection for a twofold reason: either because some peoples are called out and, as it were, removed from the common mass of the human race, as happens in election properly speaking, so that they may hear and thus partake in the special grace of the Gospel, while some other peoples are disregarded and passed by through a certain divine judgment, whether they submit themselves to that divine call,
I failed to realize this when I was commenting on one fragment at a time, but we need a way to clarify that the "they" after "whether" refers to those who are called, not those who are passed by. I guess you can simply say "whether those who are called submit themselves..."
for which reason
I'd say more like "in the way in which".
the people of God
You forgot to translate electus.
The other reason is because
That, instead of translating the Latin literally as "or because", is a good way of splitting that monster of a sentence to make it a bit more readable in English. Now, it might further smoothe things out if you also changed "either because" in the beginning to "the first reason is because".

It's probably possible to subdivide the sentence even more.
 

MichaelJYoo

Member
Thank you! Just wondering if your knowledge of Latin is such that when you see any Latin text that's posted in this forum, you more or less are able to understand what it is saying? Or do you need to pause, use a dictionary, etc?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Thank you! Just wondering if your knowledge of Latin is such that when you see any Latin text that's posted in this forum, you more or less are able to understand what it is saying?
Usually, yes.
Or do you need to pause, use a dictionary, etc?
That sometimes happens. There can be a word I'm not familiar with, or if the sentence is very convoluted I sometimes need to read it more than once to get all the connections. The sentence in this thread, for instance, took me more than one reading to figure out which vel or sive went with which.
 
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