Si placet, sententias de versibus quaero

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Vesper Nativitatis erat, totasque per aedes
..Bestia non movit, ne culicella quidem.
Nunc tibiales in focibus cum munere pendunt;
..Venturi gratia spes Nicholatis adest.
Convenientes in lectis pueri atque puellae
..Dulcia per somnes pruna salire vident.
Obvulto mater capite, probus Ego galeo,
..Hibernis longis somnibus incipimus.

Ut emendatio valentior citiorque sit, nunc Anglice loquor; peto omnes simile (si fas) loqui:

I was playing around with this over the weekend--spirit of the season and all--and though putting Moore's poem into elegiacs was appropriate. Besides throwing it out to the group for criticism, there are a few specific questions:
  • Nativitas is listed as having the first i long. I have taken a liberty in making it short (otherwise I could never use it, which would be difficult in a Xmas poem :) ). I'm justifying this as part of a general language trend (e.g. the word has morphed into Spanish as Navidad, where the i is dropped altogether, making it a likely candidate to be shortened). Do you agree/disagree, or have a better idea?
  • I am switching tense from the original to present tense beginning in line 3 (Nunc is a tip-off). Justifiable? Also, what do you make of cum munere?
  • What do you make of line 4? OK/not OK?
  • I really wanted to use liberi for "children", but I don't find this usage anywhere in Virgil (it doesn't scan right), so am stuck with pueri atque puellae. Any better ideas?
  • Does anyone know how to indent lines with this message board SW? I've had to resort to using ".." to get the second line of each couplet to indent...
 

Iynx

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
T2R6WELS, Maine, USA
1. Venturi gratia spes Nicholatis adest

In the Catholic tradition, I believe we would be talking about Nicolaus (four syllables), -i. In the old Litany of the Saints we had Nicolae as the vocative: Sancte Nicolae, ora pro nobis.

I think the line is grammatically OK.

2. Dulcia per somnes pruna salire vident

Can per somnes can be right? Sleep is somnus, -i; dream is somnium, -i, to sleep is somnio, -are, etc. Somnes looks like an accusative plural object for per, but does such a word exist?

I hope it does, because this is a great line.
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
Wait sorry I'm only familiar with dactylic hexameter in Latin poetry, and barely that: what meter are you working with here?
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Iynx dixit:
1. Venturi gratia spes Nicholatis adest

In the Catholic tradition, I believe we would be talking about Nicolaus (four syllables), -i. In the old Litany of the Saints we had Nicolae as the vocative: Sancte Nicolae, ora pro nobis.

I think the line is grammatically OK.
I didn't even look up this word, expecting Nicholas, -atis; I may just leave it, but I'll investigate how Nicolaus would work...
2. Dulcia per somnes pruna salire vident

Can per somnes can be right? Sleep is somnus, -i; dream is somnium, -i, to sleep is somnio, -are, etc. Somnes looks like an accusative plural object for per, but does such a word exist?

I hope it does, because this is a great line.
Well, perhaps I can salvage it: Dulcia dum somnis pruna salire vident, allowing somniis -> somnis (?)
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
"while in dreams"? Seems a bit off in Latin...the placement of dum is just kind of awkward. I think with what you were going for you could just do per somnos...
And again, what meter is this?
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
quemquem me facis dixit:
Wait sorry I'm only familiar with dactylic hexameter in Latin poetry, and barely that: what meter are you working with here?
The elegiac--probably the second-most-common meter found after dactylic hexameter--is written in two-line couplets. The first line is your standard dactylic hexameter. The second is two feet (dactyl/spondee) followed by a single long syllable, causing a natural break in the line, and followed by two dactyls and another single syllable at the end:

-uu or -- | -uu or -- | - || -uu | -uu | x

This line is called the "pentameter" under the notion that there are four "full" feet, plus the two monosyllables each contributing one-half of a foot.

It's often found in love poetry, or other playful verse. Catullus has quite a few examples (e.g. 101: Multas per gentes).
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
Does the first line of dactylic hexameter have any specific restrictions on the first four feet (which in normal dactylic hexameter can be either a dactyl or a spondee)?
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Correcting...

Vesper Nativitatis erat, totasque per aedes
..Bestia non movit, ne culicella quidem.
Nunc tibiales in focibus cum munere pendunt;
..Venturi gratia spes Nicholatis adest.
Convenientes in lectis pueri atque puellae
..Dulcia per noctem pruna salire vident.
Obvulto mater capite, probus Ego galeo,
..Somno ut cedamus continuo facile.

The egregious mistake with somnes just couldn't be patched, so I settle for per noctem (mainly I want to avoid using somnus less than two lines apart). That last line needed a rewrite as well...

QmF, like the epic verse, the dactylic line can admit dactyl or spondee in the first four, typically dactyl in the fifth and spondee last.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Gratias tibi Iynx; ultra perrexi:

Exoritur clamor subito de gramine tantus
..Qui consurgere me dein agat ex cubile.
Assilio similis nitido fulgore fenestram;
..Scissis sipariis, iamque fores pateant!
Alta nivis crasso tegmento Luna redita
..Lucet sicut sol lumina rebus imis.
Ast oculis apparet quid--mirabile visu--
..Cervis octonis ducitur ecce traha.
Tam agilis veloxque iugum premit auriga cana,
..Ut nemo possit quam potius Nicholas.
Cursores citius aquilis per flamina currunt
..Hortaturque quibus nomina singula dux:

Itaque, ut emendatio valentior citiorque sit, nunc Anglice loquor:
  • I don't think the 2nd line with dein is very good (I'm taking it as a monosyllable--which is passable but not ideal--and the whole line seems contrived).
  • Is crasso - "thick" OK in line 5? Is there a better word to describe the tegmentum nivis?
  • The line that begins Ut nemo is also a bit weak, but there it is
  • I also notice a lot of the pentameters start with two spondees; probably my lack of skill, but it's actually a good exercise.
Again, any errors anyone spots would be most appreciated. I'll need a break/edit before moving on to the next lines; what's the Latin word for "Prancer" :) ?[/list]
 

Andy

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Urbs Panamae
Well, maybe you can form nominatives out of the following verbs (I have no clue as to what jumper would look like in latin, from the verb to jump):

Persulto - to prance or
Salio - to leap

Is it possible to turn latin verbs into nouns, like prance - prancer, leap - leaper?

Persultus, perhaps?
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
There are two "doer" forms in Latin. You've probably already seen one of them before. They are formed basically by taking the 4th principle part and taking off the ending and adding -tor (masculine) or -trix (feminine). If this modified form (I believe it's called a stem) ends in a t, then you drop the t in the -tor or -trix. Speaking of which...are there any past passive participles whose stems DON'T end in t? I can't think of any.
Examples are actor, ductor, orator, etc.
Persultator though...ack. Awful.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Andy dixit:
Well, maybe you can form nominatives out of the following verbs (I have no clue as to what jumper would look like in latin, from the verb to jump):

Persulto - to prance or
Salio - to leap

Is it possible to turn latin verbs into nouns, like prance - prancer, leap - leaper?

Persultus, perhaps?
Before reading this, I'd decided that since saltator - "Dancer", I could nod to the original rhyme and jokingly coin Praltator. But I like Andy's idea for this word much better, though I'll modify to Persultor, thx :)

And so, Santa hortatur:

"Cursor, Saltator, Persultor, vadite Vulpes!
..Ite Comans, Cupido, Brontea, Fulmen io!
Summam ad porticulam, iam summa ad moenia sursum;
..Currite vos omnes, currite, currite nunc!"
  • By using Cursor as the name "Dasher", I'll have to change the Cursores - "Coursers" two lines earlier; I think Renones - "Reindeer (skins)" is a good choice.
  • Comans is short for Comans stella, which I think is how Ovid describes the deified Caesar in the Metamorphoses (?).
  • Thank God for Brontea - "thunderstone", i.e. a meteorite. Donner and Blitzen, are "Thunder and Lightning" in German (there is some question over the original spelling of "Donner", but let's leave that aside). I tried various names involving tono (e.g. Tonita, which doesn't fit the meter here), but none really worked. Compromise works best...
  • For the 2nd half of line 3, I had an alternative: iam summos ad parietes. I like this better, but alas the first e in parietes is short (I was surprised at this; seems unusual since e is long in the nominative singular form).
I'm probably enjoying this way too much; 24 lines down, 32 to go...[/list]
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
Is it really persultor and not persultator? Wait...what's the infinitive of that verb?
 

QMF

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Location:
Virginia, US
I believe it would be persultator in that way, cf. saltatrix, etc. Am I wrong?
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
quemquem me facis dixit:
I believe it would be persultator in that way, cf. saltatrix, etc. Am I wrong?
I don't think you're wrong, but I would say there's no citation for persultator or persultor, and the omission of a syllable is justified by the example of canto -> cantor. So I'll defend it.
 

Cato

Consularis

  • Consularis

Location:
Chicago, IL
Moving right along...

Ac veluti sicca prae turbine folia volant
..Obice perventa nubibus adsiliunt,
Sic apici sedis frenatum subvolat agmen
..Ludibiis multis cum Nicholate quoque.
Tempore cumque brevi tecto sonus arrigit aures,
..Ungula vestigiis quaeque super gradibus,
Duco caput penitus, tum circum lumina tendo,
..Perque foramen init fumiferum cadere
Vertice qui villis ad pedes volvitur omnis,
..Atque nigro vestis sordida iam cinere.

Work has been rather crazy this week, so I get a chance to do a couplet on my lunch hour & that's about it.

I've also made some changes to the earlier sections, and plan to post in toto when completed. I'm just looking for anyone to point out errors or obscurities; thx:)
 
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