to need / want

gerases

Member
Imber Ranae dixit:
I was using emptum as the supine of emo: "to go [somewhere] to buy". Have you not learnt the supine yet?
I only heard about the supine in the context of infinitives -- a supine plus iri indicates future infinitive passive if I remember correctly, but I haven't heard of it in the context of verbs of motion. I'm still going through the textbook.

It's used with verbs of motion to indicate purpose. I used it here because I don't know of a general Latin word for "store". Taberna "shop, storefront" could work, I suppose, but I don't think the Romans used it in a generalized sense like we use "store" in "to go to the store". Ad tabernam would mean "to the/a shop" rather than "to any place for shopping". Perhaps ad forum would work, but Romans went to the forum to do more than just buy things.
According to Rosetta Stone, a hardware store is "taberna ferramentaria", a jewlery store is "taberna ornamenta" and a supermarket (grocery store) is "macellum".

Opus mihi [ad tabernam] panem emptum ire est. = "I need to go [to a shop to] buy bread."

English word order: Opus est mihi ire [ad tabernam] emptum panem. literally: "Need is to me to go [to a shop] to buy bread."
Interesting structure. I will keep this in mind when I get to it in the textbook. Thank you!
 

Decimvs

Aedilis
Staff member
gerases dixit:
Decimus, how long have you been studying Latin? How did your fascination begin? How is your listening comprehension? Do you practice speaking it? Do you listen to that radio station? If you do, do you know if they have transcripts of each broadcast so I can follow what they are saying better? I still have 9 chapters of Wheelock to go! I became interested in it partly because of Schopenhauer but the decisive impetus was Carmina Burana.
I have studied Latin for about 2-3 years now. I started out using Wheelock's as a self-learner at home. That lasted for about a year and a half. It was very slow going at first. I am very picky and thorough, so when I move at my own pace I tend to go very slowly, and beat every little point to death, making sure that I have permanently etched it into my brain before moving on to something else. I am a Psychology student, and part of the requirement in most state universities, when pursuing a liberal arts degree, is to learn a second language. So, naturally, I enrolled in Latin. :) I have completed all of the formal grammar courses, which consisted of two approximately 16 week courses, which were pretty intense, and meet every weekday. Now I am reading Caesar, Cicero, and I think I will be venturing into the Aeneid this coming year also.

The courses I have had deal exclusively with reading Latin, not speaking it. So, for speaking and listening comprehension, I use other things. I tried to use the Latinum site, but, since I was using different books to learn (besides Adler), I kept away from it so that I would not get confused. I wanted to focus exclusively on what my professor was teaching. But, now that I have a solid foundation, I may use the Latinum site more. I also use the chatroom at schola.ning.com from time to time. I also download podcasts to listen to. There are several podcasts of Latin poetry, and one that has audio versions of the 38 Latin Stories book, which is a companion to Wheelock's.

To answer honestly, I practice speaking out loud a lot, often just to myself. Sometimes I will be standing in the shower in the morning, and just pretend that someone asked me a question, and then just try to answer it as best I can. Or, I will act as if I am telling someone about something, and do my best. Or, if I am listening to people talk, and am not really interested in what they are saying, I will just pick out sentences, and try to say them to myself in Latin.

Life in Latin-land is often lonely I am afraid. I get by mainly by talking to myself, and making up little games like I mentioned above. :)
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Hey Decimvs, could you please give me that link to the site with the audio to 38 Latin stories? I'd appreciate it. :)
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
gerases dixit:
I only heard about the supine in the context of infinitives -- a supine plus iri indicates future infinitive passive if I remember correctly, but I haven't heard of it in the context of verbs of motion. I'm still going through the textbook.
Ah, I can see how my sentence was confusing to you then. You'll notice, however, that I was using the active infinitive ire, not the passive infinitive iri. The future passive infinitive is an altogether pretty strange construction, in that it uses both the passive of an intransitive verb [impersonal use] and the supine. It's relatively rare, too, as the periphrasis fore ut + subj. [result clause] is more commonly used in its place.

According to Rosetta Stone, a hardware store is "taberna ferramentaria", a jewlery store is "taberna ornamenta" and a supermarket (grocery store) is "macellum".
The first two appear to be coinages for modern use, albeit very sensible ones. If Latin had survived into the modern day, it's very possible these would be used. Macellum seems a good, though not perfect, equivalent of the modern supermarket. It was an open market rather than a single store, of course, and it was a place where meat, fish, and vegetables were sold, but probably not bread. Separate indoor bakeries with attached storefronts called pistrina were where baked goods could be bought.
 

gerases

Member
I have studied Latin for about 2-3 years now. I started out using Wheelock's as a self-learner at home. That lasted for about a year and a half. It was very slow going at first. I am very picky and thorough, so when I move at my own pace I tend to go very slowly, and beat every little point to death, making sure that I have permanently etched it into my brain before moving on to something else.
Aah! Wheelock too! I'm very similar to you in my approach to learning something. I've been self-studying Latin for about 5 months now. I'm trying to move 1 chapter every 4 days. I do Rosetta Stone and also listen to the vocabulary from Latinum as I'm falling asleep. I'm wondering what it would be like to be formally educated in Latin. Ideally, I would like a private tutor. Even more ideally I would like to live in Rome somewhere and be enrolled in an intensive immersion program. Do you know of a program like that there? Actually, the university of Kentucky, which is close to me, has the "Living Latin" program where they encourage Latin conversation. And it's a bit closer than Rome! You know of any intensive spoken program in the US?

I am a Psychology student, and part of the requirement in most state universities, when pursuing a liberal arts degree, is to learn a second language. So, naturally, I enrolled in Latin. :) I have completed all of the formal grammar courses, which consisted of two approximately 16 week courses, which were pretty intense, and meet every weekday. Now I am reading Caesar, Cicero, and I think I will be venturing into the Aeneid this coming year also.
Way cool! Cicero is tough even in Wheelock (for me). Must be even tougher when it's in the original. I just would like to read more down to earth Latin. Fairy tales maybe or something. I admire your dedication and seriousness about the language.

There are several podcasts of Latin poetry, and one that has audio versions of the 38 Latin Stories book, which is a companion to Wheelock's.
Why doesn't any of Latin poetry (at least in Wheelock) rhyme?

I second the request by Matheus to post the link :)

To answer honestly, I practice speaking out loud a lot, often just to myself. Sometimes I will be standing in the shower in the morning, and just pretend that someone asked me a question, and then just try to answer it as best I can. Or, I will act as if I am telling someone about something, and do my best. Or, if I am listening to people talk, and am not really interested in what they are saying, I will just pick out sentences, and try to say them to myself in Latin.
I try to do the same almost. I pick out phrases out of songs while on the way to work as well. But I'm still a baby in Latin. But patience, I say to myself, patience. It took me 11 years to become truly comfortable in English -- to read and speak about philosophy.

Life in Latin-land is often lonely I am afraid.
Amen, brother. But at least we can talk about it here. You know, I've been thinking that all it takes for the popularity of Latin to rise is for some popular band (like say U2) to come up with a bombastic hit in Latin.
 

gerases

Member
Ah, I can see how my sentence was confusing to you then. You'll notice, however, that I was using the active infinitive ire, not the passive infinitive iri. The future passive infinitive is an altogether pretty strange construction, in that it uses both the passive of an intransitive verb [impersonal use] and the supine. It's relatively rare, too, as the periphrasis fore ut + subj. [result clause] is more commonly used in its place.
Yeah, I'm not there yet. But you just give me some time :)

The first two appear to be coinages for modern use, albeit very sensible ones.
Yes, they are big on inventing new words, but it's still awesome. Here some other ones:
Telephonum gestabile (a cell phone)
Telehoraris (TV)
Computerium gestabile (a laptop)

Separate indoor bakeries with attached storefronts called pistrina were where baked goods could be bought.
Right on. I saw that word there as well.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
A laptop can also be computatrum portabile.
 

gerases

Member
Matthaeus dixit:
A laptop can also be computatrum portabile.
Good to know. I think I misspelled laptop. It should be "computatorium gestabile". You sure it's "computatrum" and not "computatorium"? You probably are :)
 

Decimvs

Aedilis
Staff member
Matthaeus dixit:
Hey Decimvs, could you please give me that link to the site with the audio to 38 Latin stories? I'd appreciate it. :)
I am trying to search for a link right now. When I got them, I did so through iTunes, by clicking on podcasts, and searching for things like "latin language" or "classics." I am having trouble finding a web address for them. :( If you have iTunes it should be fairly easy. I don't use iTunes anymore since I switched my computer to Ubuntu Linux, so I can't dig around on iTunes unfortunately.
 

Iohannes Aurum

Technicus Auxiliarius
Matthaeus dixit:
A laptop can also be computatrum portabile.
According to Traupman, a laptop can be also be ordinatrulum portabile.
 

Chamaeleo

New Member
Iohannes Aurum dixit:
According to Traupman, a laptop can be also be ordinatrulum portabile.
It seems redundant to me to make it both diminutive and ‘portable’.
 

Chamaeleo

New Member
gerases2 dixit:
I want to say "I need to go to the store to buy some bread" or "I need to wash my hands" or "I want to have some water".
Pāne egeō.
Emendus est panis.
Panis mihi emendus est.
Panem emĕre dēbeō.
Opus est [mihi] panem emĕre.
Ad pistrīnam īre dēbeō.
Necesse est [mihi] pānem emptum exīre.

Manūs meæ lavandæ sunt.
Manūs mihi lavandæ sunt.
Manūs abluĕre dēbeō.

Sitiō.
Frigĭdam volō.
Mihi placēret aliqvantŭlum aqvæ bibĕre.
 

Chamaeleo

New Member
gerases dixit:
Why doesn't any of Latin poetry (at least in Wheelock) rhyme?
Because European languages didn’t develop rhyming poetry until well into the Middle Ages. Before that, they used other devices. Beowulf is alliterative verse, for example.
 

Iohannes Aurum

Technicus Auxiliarius
CHAMÆLEO dixit:
Iohannes Aurum dixit:
According to Traupman, a laptop can be also be ordinatrulum portabile.
It seems redundant to me to make it both diminutive and ‘portable’.
It is not redundant. In fact, ordinatrulum portabile is a good translation for netbook.
 

Labienus

Civis Illustris
Why doesn't any of Latin poetry (at least in Wheelock) rhyme?
Pffft, who needs rhyme anyway? :p John Milton's opinion of rhyming verse in the preface to Paradise Lost:

"[Rhyme is] no necessary adjunct or true ornament of poem or good verse, in longer works especially, but the invention of a barbarous age, to set off wretched matter and lame meter..."


(I have nothing against rhyme really ;) )
 
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