Translation Thread: Cicero, On Old Age

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I like Andy's interpretation of eo meliore condicione, and Cinefactus's choice of "former/latter" for hic/ille. Good analysis all the way around.
 

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Been a little swamped lately, but now have time to post the next selection:

Quamquam, O di boni! Quid est in hominis natura diu? Da enim summum tempus, exspectemus Tartessiorum regis aetatem (fuit enim, ut scriptum video, Arganthonius quidam Gadibus, qui octoginta regnavit annos, centum viginti vixit). Sed mihi ne diuturnum quidem quicquam videtur in quo est aliquid extremum. Cum enim id advenit, tum illud, quod praeteriit, effluxit. Tantum remanet, quod virtute et recte factis consecutus sis. Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur, nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus.

I'm not sure who the king of the Tartessi/Agathonius of Gades (modern Cadiz) was; I take this name to be for the Romans what "Methuselah" is for us.

The quid in quid sequatur (note subjunctive) is probably more like quicquid; the whole phrase could be translated by "the future".

Temporis in the last line must modify Quod as a partitive genitive.
 
 

cinefactus

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I will but my foot in it ;) I was a bit unsure with "Da enim summum tempus"...

Yet, O good gods! What is long in the natural course of man? Give indeed the greatest time, lit us await the era of the king of Tartessos, (for there was, as I see written, a certain Aganthonius of Cadiz, who reigned for eighty years, (and) lived for one hundred and twenty). But to me indeed it does not seem that anything is long lasting in which there is some limit. For when it has arrived, then that, which preceded it has disappeared. As much remains, which one has obtained by worth and right deeds. Indeed the hours yield, and days and months and years, neither is past time ever returned, nor can one know that which follows. The time which is given to each one for living, with that he should be content.
 

Andy

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I like your take a lot Cinefactus. Thanks for clearing Gadibus up for me!
 

Cato

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Cinefactus dixit:
I will but my foot in it ;) I was a bit unsure with "Da enim summum tempus"...
I think you did fine Cinefactus. One very small clarification: I think aetatem in the third sentence is "age" (rather than era), referring back to summum tempus: "Indeed, grant the greatest (amount of) time, (and) we might expect the age of the king of the Tartessi..."

I particularly like Cicero's phrasing in Horae quidem cedunt..., "the hours, the days, the months, the years" build to the finality of the statements given in the two nec clauses. Nicely done.

BTW, I don't know where/when I learned that Gades was the Roman name for modern Cadiz, but I'm sure it was in reading something like this. That's what makes reading such an invaluable tool to learn Latin.
 

Cato

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New chunk for today:

Neque enim histrioni, ut placeat, peragenda fabula est, modo in quocunque fuerit actu probetur. Neque sapientibus usque ad 'plaudite' veniendum est, breve enim tempus aetatis satis longum est ad bene honesteque vivendum. Sin processerit longius, non magis dolendum est, quam agricolae dolent--praeterita verni temporis suavitate--aestatem autumnumque venisse. "Ver" enim tamquam adulescentia significat ostenditque fructus futuros; reliqua autem tempora demetendis fructibus et percipiendis accommodata sunt.

I hope you're up to speed on gerunds and gerundives, because there are quite a few in this paragraph...

The first sentence is tricky; I'll leave it to the group, but will note that perago might be better understood as "done thoroughly -> done from beginning to end".

I think for the phrase agricolae dolent, dolent - "suffer, grieve" might be better translated by something like "complain"; it will certainly help explain the grammar that follows.
 
 

cinefactus

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Cato dixit:
I think you did fine Cinefactus. One very small clarification: I think aetatem in the third sentence is "age" (rather than era), referring back to summum tempus: "Indeed, grant the greatest (amount of) time, (and) we might expect the age of the king of the Tartessi..."
Ahah, all becomes clear, thanks!
 
 

cinefactus

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I must admit I am a bit stuck on the first sentence, but I will have a stab at the remaining ones...

Nor should wise man come all the way to the credits, for the time of life is short (but) it is long enough to live well and honorably. But if it will appear longer, one must not greatly mourn, as the farmers do—the charm of the former springtime—once the summer and autumn have come. For spring as it were signifies youth, and reveals the future fruits; the remaining time should be used for reaping and securing the fruits.
 

Cato

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Cinefactus dixit:
I must admit I am a bit stuck on the first sentence, but I will have a stab at the remaining ones...
Neque enim histrioni, ut placeat, peragenda fabula est, modo in quocunque fuerit actu probetur.

For the first part up to est: Fabula - "story" may be better translated here as "play". Histrioni is dative of agent with the gerundive peragenda. The sentence then (leaving out ut placeat for the moment) is literally "For the play is not to be done from beginning to end (peragenda) by the actor.", or for a better English rendering "For an actor does not need to perform the entire play." Now we can append ut placeat as a clear purpose clause: "to please (the audience)"

The last part better explains the actors role. Start with the verb probetur and take this with modo - "let him be esteemed only". In quocunque actu - "in whatever act", fuerit - "he might have been" (perf. subj.). All together:

"For an actor does not need to perform the entire play to please the audience; let him only be esteemed in whatever act he might appear."

I like your translation of the following sentence, which continues the theatre metaphor, especially plaudite - "the credits".
 

Andy

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Good to find out that agere (and apparently also ire) take a dative of agency in their gerundive forms.

Also, quocunque can mean however small, so that's a possiblity to consider to, right?

For neither the play should be finished by the actor, so that he may please, let him only be commended in however small an act he may have been (in).

The rest: Nor the very end ought to be arrived to by the sages, for a short time is long enough to achieve living well and honestly. If on the contrary he may have advanced for a very long time, he ought not to be grieved more than the farmer grieves --by the past charm of the vernal time-- when summer and autumn are to have arrived.

For spring, just as youth, indicates and shows (a bit different here from Cinefactus' take) the fruits to be; the remaining times are (to be) suited with the reaping and securing of the fruits.
 
 

cinefactus

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Cato dixit:
For an actor does not need to perform the entire play." Now we can append ut placeat as a clear purpose clause: "to please (the audience)"
Thanks again, it is very clear once you have explained it ;)

But in the next sentence, is 'come' the best verb to translate veniendum do you think, or would it be better to say something like, "nor must the wise last all the way..."?
 

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Cinefactus dixit:
But in the next sentence, is 'come' the best verb to translate veniendum do you think, or would it be better to say something like, "nor must the wise last all the way..."?
I think your choice of "last" is better in English. The sense of the sentence is clear: You don't need to be old to be wise, and wisdom is the most important part of life, not old age.
 

Cato

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Last chunk; this will close section XIX:

Fructus autem senectutis est, ut saepe dixi, ante partorum bonorum memoria et copia. Omnia autem, quae secundum naturam fiunt, sunt habenda in bonis. Quid est autem tam secundum naturam quam senibus emori? Quod idem contingit adulescentibus adversante et repugnante natura.

Itaque adulescentes mihi mori sic videntur, ut cum aquae multitudine flammae vis opprimitur; senes autem sic, ut cum sua sponte, nulla adhibita vi, consumptus ignis exstinguitur. Et quasi poma ex arboribus: Cruda si sunt, vix evelluntur, si matura et cocta, decidunt. Sic vitam adulescentibus vis aufert, senibus maturitas. Quae quidem mihi tam iucunda est, ut, quo propius ad mortem accedam, quasi terram videre videar aliquandoque in portum ex longa navigatione esse venturus.


habenda in bonis is a neat, idiomatic phrase.

The start of the second paragraph is a little complicated. Start with this order: adulescentes videntur mihi mori, then assume sic...ut - "just...as" coordinates this sentence with the simile that follows. Cicero then repeats this pattern (though he leaves out a lot of words to avoid redundancy) in the portion after the semicolon.

This last paragraph has always stayed with me; I think it's one of the most touching in the essay.
 

Andy

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My take with much license:

Moreover, the fruit of old age is, as I frequently said, the memory of olden pleasant events, and plenty of them. Also, all things which happen according to nature, ought to be held in a good light. And, what is so according to nature as to die off an old man? Same thing which lays hands on young men with nature opposing and fighting back.

And so young men to me die in such a way it seems, as when the flame is suppressed by a great number of waters (a flood?); on the contrary, old men die thus - when by their own free will, with no summoned force are extinguished as a burned up flame.

And as if apples from the tree: If they are fresh, with difficulty they are plucked, and if they are ripe and mature, they fall. Thus force snatches life from (abl. of source) youth, the ripeness (huh? not accusative?) from old men. Which to me, indeed, is so pleasant that, while (quo?) I come nearer to death, as if I seem to see land and at anytime to be about to come (venturus esse) into the harbor from a long trip.

---

What I don't understand:

1. The line; senibus maturitas, why nominative?
2. The 'quo', where's the reference?
3. The line 'quam senibus emori'. Why the ablative?

I was able to get through these with WORDS and a little Spanish: 'que morir de viejo' (lit. than to die from old man), but I'd rather know the actual Latin way these work.
 
 

cinefactus

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I will give my version, which is fairly similar...

The fruit of old age is, as I have often said, is the memory of good gains and wealth. Moreover everything which happens naturally should be considered good. What is so natural as to die (whilst) old. Which same thing when it happens to a youth opposes and disagrees with the natural course.

And thus it seems to me that youth dying thus, is similar to the force of flames being overcome with a multitude of water; (when it occurs to) an old man however it is like when a fire, of its own accord, with no force applied, having burned itself out is extinguished. And like apples from trees: if they are raw they are plucked with difficulty, if mature and ripe, they fall. Thus violence snatches life from the young, ripeness from the old. Which indeed is so pleasant to me, that, where I shall approach near unto death, it seems like sighting land and being about to finally come into port after a long voyage.
 

Cato

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Andy dixit:
1. The line; senibus maturitas, why nominative?
Maturitas is what aufert vitam from senibus, as opposed to vis, which aufert vitam from adulescentibus.

Maturitas - "ripeness" is more like it's English cognate "maturity", indicating the proper time to harvest.
2. The 'quo', where's the reference?
I think this is the adverb "to which place"; as in previous paragraphs, Cicero seems to use the simple relatives where we might expect something more like quocumque or aliquo.
3. The line 'quam senibus emori'. Why the ablative?
I think this is actually dative, probably ethical dative: "What is so according to nature as for old men to die?"
 

Cato

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Now that we've reached the end, I wonder how folks view Cicero's argument here. I think that the argument is at its weakest here (borrowing Leighman's translation):

"Moreover that age (youth) holds many more opportunities for death than ours; young men fall more easily into sickness, they are more seriously ill, they are cared for more sadly. And so (only) a few come to old age; which happened on the condition that he lived better and more wisely. For intellect and reason and judgement is with the old; people who, were they not existent, there would be no state at all."

This may perhaps have been true in Cicero's day, but it is certainly not true today, as a glance at modern health care will make clear. Cicero doesn't seriously consider senility--which must have been present in the ancient world--and he had no way of understanding demetia and Alzheimer's. This might make one question whether the elderly are really the repository of reason and judgement. In the U.S., there is the potentially troubling case of elderly Supreme Court justices like the late William Rehnquist (who may have suffered from bouts of dementia), hardly an endorsement for the idea that the preservation of the civitas lies with old men. What do you think?
 

kmp

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It's all claptrap, special pleading, and whistling in the dark. There are much better things to read in Latin

- Ken
 
 

cinefactus

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One has to be careful to distinguish the effects of illness from the effects of age. This will be particularly important as the population ages. The fact that the elderly are more likely to have coexisting disease does not mean that it is a product of age.

Fundamentally, Cicero's arguments don't really address the issue. Although it may be natural for the elderly to die, and whilst it is true that they may have enjoyed a good life, I don't think it makes the end necessary any more palatable, particularly if it is accompanied with infirmity.

I think you are correct that there must have been senility in the ancient world, as we have the proverb, "Bis pueri senes".
 
 

cinefactus

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As an aside, whilst I am not entirely convinced that Cicero is completely sincere, I did enjoy the translation, and found it worthwhile...
 
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