Translation Thread - Potatores Exquisiti (BEGINNERS WELCOME)
- Thread starter Cato
- Start date
Some excellent discussion here. QmF, I dont know if any specific vernacular was spoken by these students--it was quite a mix of people in those days--but I am no expert. These wandering groups were often called "Goliards" after their presumed (fictitious) patron St. Goliard; you may learn more by googoling the term.
Anyway:
Si quis latitat hic forte,
qui non curat vinum forte
ostendantur illi porte,
exeat ab hac cohorte:
plus est nobis gravis morte,
si maneat,
si recedat a consorte,
tunc pereat.
Note the two different meanings/uses of forte, an excellent pun IMO.
Anyway:
Si quis latitat hic forte,
qui non curat vinum forte
ostendantur illi porte,
exeat ab hac cohorte:
plus est nobis gravis morte,
si maneat,
si recedat a consorte,
tunc pereat.
Note the two different meanings/uses of forte, an excellent pun IMO.
If anyone who does not strongly desire wine is still hidden here by chance,
May they be shown (porte?)
May (they? Why exeat?) exit from this band:
(Huh? Not sure about the usage of plus here...)
If he should remain,
If he should withdraw from the fraternity,
Then he should die.
May they be shown (porte?)
May (they? Why exeat?) exit from this band:
(Huh? Not sure about the usage of plus here...)
If he should remain,
If he should withdraw from the fraternity,
Then he should die.
ostendantur illi porte
let them be shown to the door
ae is often contracted to e in mediaeval latin. I remember the class dissolving into laughter upon reading:
Rogerius comes pene solus remanserit...
Needless to say I missed it until it was pointed out to me
plus est nobis gravis morte
I believe this is a mediaevalism for gravior
This is more serious than death to us...
let them be shown to the door
ae is often contracted to e in mediaeval latin. I remember the class dissolving into laughter upon reading:
Rogerius comes pene solus remanserit...
Needless to say I missed it until it was pointed out to me
plus est nobis gravis morte
I believe this is a mediaevalism for gravior
This is more serious than death to us...
I seem to vaguely recall hearing or reading that during this period, as there were no native speakers, that people were not clear on which vowels were long or short, and furthermore that the vowel sounds changed and diphthongs were shortened, which made the metre of traditonal Latin poetry more difficult to understand. At the same time, the French vogue was for rhyming verse...quemquem me facis dixit:
Of course this could all be my confabulation
Certainly many of the poems that I have looked at in the Carmina Burana both rhyme and have a metre that we would be more familiar with...
JD
My take:
Si quis latitat hic forte,
If anyone (si quis) is hidden in this place by chance
qui non curat vinum forte
who does not procure strong wine
ostendantur illi porte,
may they be shown that door
exeat ab hac cohorte:
let him go away from this crowd
plus est nobis gravis morte,
it is to us more serious than death (abl. of comparison?)
si maneat,
whether he may remain
si recedat a consorte,
(than) if he may retire to his wife(?)
tunc pereat.
then he may die
Don't get how the last lines match
Si quis latitat hic forte,
If anyone (si quis) is hidden in this place by chance
qui non curat vinum forte
who does not procure strong wine
ostendantur illi porte,
may they be shown that door
exeat ab hac cohorte:
let him go away from this crowd
plus est nobis gravis morte,
it is to us more serious than death (abl. of comparison?)
si maneat,
whether he may remain
si recedat a consorte,
(than) if he may retire to his wife(?)
tunc pereat.
then he may die
Don't get how the last lines match
Ah now I understand ostendantur illi porte. You're actually not right, Andy, but you got the idea:
May the doors (portae) be shown to him.
Also, it explains exeat.
I wonder about forte, though. Is that adverbial describing curat, or adjectival describing vinum?
And Andy: Spanish hurt you like it hurt one of my classmates last year! A in Latin is a form of ab; in Spanish, ad broke down into a.
I think I got the last 3 lines now though:
If he would remain
(And) if he would recede from the fraternity (I don't think this is wife, as "from his wife" wouldn't make much sense here.)
Then may he (jussive subjunctive) perish.
May the doors (portae) be shown to him.
Also, it explains exeat.
I wonder about forte, though. Is that adverbial describing curat, or adjectival describing vinum?
And Andy: Spanish hurt you like it hurt one of my classmates last year! A in Latin is a form of ab; in Spanish, ad broke down into a.
I think I got the last 3 lines now though:
If he would remain
(And) if he would recede from the fraternity (I don't think this is wife, as "from his wife" wouldn't make much sense here.)
Then may he (jussive subjunctive) perish.
Sounds good to me.quemquem me facis dixit:
And I see the 'door' thing too... Hmm, may he be shown to that door (dat.) made more sense to me. But I can see how you are right. Passive subjunctive of 'it points out' is 'may it be pointed out', so it would be: May those doors be pointed out to him, right?
I made the same mistake.
I think illi is dative singular. May the doors be shown to him...
JD
I think illi is dative singular. May the doors be shown to him...
JD
It seems to me, my friends, that we are sliding along here, achieving comprehension without achieving translation.
What have we got? To begin with, it's lovely "bupmty-bumpty" verse. This isn't Virgil, and even peasants (like myself) can hear the music straightaway.
The idea that classical weight-based meters are normative in Latin is, I think, an unfortunate error, arising from the narrow, classically-confined curriculum that is what we too often feed students today. Those meters aren't really Latin in the first place, but Greek (just as the "French Forms"-- the triolet, for example- aren't really English, though a great deal of great verse has admittedly been achieved by the use of the foreign forms in the new tongue).
And neither stress-meter nor rhyme in Latin verse is confined to to our current scurrilous genre. Look at the De Contemptu Mundi of Bernard of Cluny, 150 years or so before our present example, or look to many of the magnificent hymns and sequences of the high middle ages. Some of these were still regularly sung when I was a boy, and some still give me goose bumps if I'm lucky enough to hear them today. Imagine (those of you too young yourselves to remember) a cold night in a dark church, lit only by a couple of candles and maybe a little moonlight, as one single voice, way in the back, begins to sing words 600 years old:
Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!
Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!
Or on a happier note, this of Aquinas:
In supremae nocte coenae
Recumbens cum fratribus,
Observata lege plene
Cibis in legalibus,
Cibum turbae duodenae
Se dat Suis manibus.
But I digress. What have we got? This is stress-meter trochaic tetrameter, not a common meter in English, but not unknown-- think of Poe's The Raven. The 6th and 8th lines diverge from this, being of but four syllables each. The rhyme-scheme is AAAAABAB, with the A's being feminine rhymes, and the B's, as I think qmf pointed out, being pseudorhymes.
Our task as translators (as I see it) is to reproduce this music while doing as little violence as possible to the meaning; to echo the sound while maintaining the sense. This should be relatively easy here, there being relatively little sense to maintain.
Let's try this for the first stanza:
Drinkers to the art attaining!
Thirst's allowed without abstaining!
Ye who swift the cups are draining,
Never another round disdaining,
Lines of empties proud maintaining,
-----Just keep 'em coming.
Wits who'd be entertaining?
-----A background humming!
Now I think there's a lot wrong with this. But I'm dumping it here as a point of departure.
What have we got? To begin with, it's lovely "bupmty-bumpty" verse. This isn't Virgil, and even peasants (like myself) can hear the music straightaway.
The idea that classical weight-based meters are normative in Latin is, I think, an unfortunate error, arising from the narrow, classically-confined curriculum that is what we too often feed students today. Those meters aren't really Latin in the first place, but Greek (just as the "French Forms"-- the triolet, for example- aren't really English, though a great deal of great verse has admittedly been achieved by the use of the foreign forms in the new tongue).
And neither stress-meter nor rhyme in Latin verse is confined to to our current scurrilous genre. Look at the De Contemptu Mundi of Bernard of Cluny, 150 years or so before our present example, or look to many of the magnificent hymns and sequences of the high middle ages. Some of these were still regularly sung when I was a boy, and some still give me goose bumps if I'm lucky enough to hear them today. Imagine (those of you too young yourselves to remember) a cold night in a dark church, lit only by a couple of candles and maybe a little moonlight, as one single voice, way in the back, begins to sing words 600 years old:
Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!
Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!
Or on a happier note, this of Aquinas:
In supremae nocte coenae
Recumbens cum fratribus,
Observata lege plene
Cibis in legalibus,
Cibum turbae duodenae
Se dat Suis manibus.
But I digress. What have we got? This is stress-meter trochaic tetrameter, not a common meter in English, but not unknown-- think of Poe's The Raven. The 6th and 8th lines diverge from this, being of but four syllables each. The rhyme-scheme is AAAAABAB, with the A's being feminine rhymes, and the B's, as I think qmf pointed out, being pseudorhymes.
Our task as translators (as I see it) is to reproduce this music while doing as little violence as possible to the meaning; to echo the sound while maintaining the sense. This should be relatively easy here, there being relatively little sense to maintain.
Let's try this for the first stanza:
Drinkers to the art attaining!
Thirst's allowed without abstaining!
Ye who swift the cups are draining,
Never another round disdaining,
Lines of empties proud maintaining,
-----Just keep 'em coming.
Wits who'd be entertaining?
-----A background humming!
Now I think there's a lot wrong with this. But I'm dumping it here as a point of departure.
I am quite sure that you can indeed do this, qmf. I admit that there is some verse-- and even some prose-- which is just plain untranslatable. But this is not it.
I find this kind of thing easier than original verse because (a) I don't need any original ideas-- in fact they often represent defects in a translation-- and (b) the task is set out in narrow, well-defined terms, like many another word-puzzle.
But I think this is like learning to field ground balls. It's maybe 1% theory and 99% practice.
So let's keep at it. I'm just now noticing that the second stanza has one fewer line than the first. So be it:
Drinkers to the art attaining!
Thirst's allowed without abstaining!
Ye who swift the cups are draining,
Never another round disdaining,
Lines of empties proud maintaining,
-----Just keep 'em coming.
Wits who'd be entertaining?
-----A background humming!
Who can't handle imbibation,
Haste ye from our celebration;
Here's no place for moderation,
Or for rural inclination
-----Slowly to sip.
That's just certain attestation
-----That you're a drip.
Now this needs help. I think the 5th and 7th lines of the second stanza are particularly weak. "To sip from mug / that you're a slug"? How about "To sip and nod / That you're a clod"? And there are some other weak places as well. Help me now.
I find this kind of thing easier than original verse because (a) I don't need any original ideas-- in fact they often represent defects in a translation-- and (b) the task is set out in narrow, well-defined terms, like many another word-puzzle.
But I think this is like learning to field ground balls. It's maybe 1% theory and 99% practice.
So let's keep at it. I'm just now noticing that the second stanza has one fewer line than the first. So be it:
Drinkers to the art attaining!
Thirst's allowed without abstaining!
Ye who swift the cups are draining,
Never another round disdaining,
Lines of empties proud maintaining,
-----Just keep 'em coming.
Wits who'd be entertaining?
-----A background humming!
Who can't handle imbibation,
Haste ye from our celebration;
Here's no place for moderation,
Or for rural inclination
-----Slowly to sip.
That's just certain attestation
-----That you're a drip.
Now this needs help. I think the 5th and 7th lines of the second stanza are particularly weak. "To sip from mug / that you're a slug"? How about "To sip and nod / That you're a clod"? And there are some other weak places as well. Help me now.
I had overlooked the need for an a in porte when I posted; I apologize if this caused some additional grief for the thread, but in a way detecting that little "gotcha" (after a bit of puzzling) is a good way to improve your Latin. In any event, I'll bet no one here will forget that illi is not just a nom. pl., but also a dative singular form (an often-overlooked form).
Iynx, how about "slow to the pour"/"that you're a bore"? Not great, but there it is.
Next chunk:
Cum contingat te praestare,
ita bibas absque pare,
ut non possis pede stare,
neque recta verba dare,
sed sit tibi salutare
potissimum
semper vas evacuare
quam maximum.
Te praestare I think will require a little interpolation; I'm interested in what the group thinks on this. The last four lines are also a bit of a challenge...
I'll also note that ita bibas absque pare seems rather straightforward to me, but I have an edition of a medieval Latin text which comes up with a curious interpretation. Unfortunately it depends on details from later in the poem, so I have to sit on it for mow.
Iynx, how about "slow to the pour"/"that you're a bore"? Not great, but there it is.
Next chunk:
Cum contingat te praestare,
ita bibas absque pare,
ut non possis pede stare,
neque recta verba dare,
sed sit tibi salutare
potissimum
semper vas evacuare
quam maximum.
Te praestare I think will require a little interpolation; I'm interested in what the group thinks on this. The last four lines are also a bit of a challenge...
I'll also note that ita bibas absque pare seems rather straightforward to me, but I have an edition of a medieval Latin text which comes up with a curious interpretation. Unfortunately it depends on details from later in the poem, so I have to sit on it for mow.
Not bad Cato, though I think we want an infinitive in the first of the lines, to follow "inclination": "Slowly to pour /That you're a bore". Unless someone comes up with something really great, maybe we should set up a poll to choose among these, and any other possibilities we may dream up.
OK, I will put my foot in it
Since it turns out that you are standing out front
therefore let you drink without equal
so that you cannot stand on your feet
nor speak correctly,
but let this be salvation to you
above all
always empty a bowl
as large as possible
JD
Since it turns out that you are standing out front
therefore let you drink without equal
so that you cannot stand on your feet
nor speak correctly,
but let this be salvation to you
above all
always empty a bowl
as large as possible
JD
When it should move you to surpass
therefore you should drink away from the wife (perhaps wife or mate works well in this situation, as if you want to excel drinking, your wife standing around is of no help)
so that you cannot stand by foot
neither give honest words
yet it may be helpful to you
chiefly
to always empty the vessel
as much as possible
And a more stylized version:
Would you drink in fascination
do so far from wife's vexation
until you fail in mobilization
or give honest conversation
and it may be of information
-- most primarily
to always drink with motivation
--and empty cup entirely
Would you agree with this? Is the metre off?
therefore you should drink away from the wife (perhaps wife or mate works well in this situation, as if you want to excel drinking, your wife standing around is of no help
)so that you cannot stand by foot
neither give honest words
yet it may be helpful to you
chiefly
to always empty the vessel
as much as possible
And a more stylized version:
Would you drink in fascination
do so far from wife's vexation
until you fail in mobilization
or give honest conversation
and it may be of information
-- most primarily
to always drink with motivation
--and empty cup entirely
Would you agree with this? Is the metre off?
Actually on second thoughts, it can't be as large as possible, because it isn't an adverb is it...
How about:
but let this be salvation to you
to always empty a very potent bowl
rather than a large one?
JD
How about:
but let this be salvation to you
to always empty a very potent bowl
rather than a large one?
JD