Translation Thread - Virgil Eclogue IV

[Cato]

also "inrita" is the key word in the passage - the traces of wickedness have been made void (inrita) and this is what releases the Earth from fear.

Indeed, and despite its proximity to perpetua, it is (as kmp points out) modifying vestigia in the previous line.

Vergil is ingenious here with his phrasing; saving inrita for the first word of the next line gives it an additional emphasis. He then follows it with perpetua up to the caesura; although that word is grammatically linked later with formidine, its position here encourages association with inrita - "wiped out forever".

To better clarify what kmp said, heroas is a Greek accusative plural.

I should have probably included a note for that; thx to QMF for clarifying.

We may not have formal structures now that we associate with rural themes. But the last hundred years has brought us much excellent English verse that I, at least, would characterise as bucolic.

The examples you cite are ones I would also classify as bucolic (I can't believe I overlooked Frost); I should probably have said (as you did) that we don't have formal poetic structures associated with rural themes. But then again, we don't have much at all in the way of formal poetic structure anymore outside of academic exercises. It is my general impression that poetry as practiced, say, 100 years ago is dead as a popular artform. I've attended enough poetry slams and listened to enough rap music (some of it quite good) to believe it.

 

[Cato]

A lot of good discussion on this poem; let's see what the next section produces:

At tibi prima, puer, nullo munuscula cultu
errantis hederas passim cum baccare tellus
mixtaque ridenti colocasia fundet acantho. (20)
ipsae lacte domum referent distenta capellae
ubera nec magnos metuent armenta leones;
ipsa tibi blandos fundent cunabula flores.
occidet et serpens et fallax herba veneni
occidet; Assyrium vulgo nascetur amomum. (25)

hedera - "ivy", a plant sacred to Bacchus, and so often associated with revelry. Note -is for -es in errantis.
baccaris is an unknown plant; possibly foxglove or cyclamen.
colocasia - "water lily", specifically the lotus, a symbol of Egyptian royalty.
acanthus - "hellebore" is a toxic flower associated with witchcraft and insanity in the ancient world (possibly because it often blooms in winter; the Christmas Rose is an example of hellebore).
ipsae modifies capellae, but carries a greater meaning here than simple "those"...
veneni is genitive of material, or (with the verbal adjective in -ax) a genitive of specification.
amonum, I think, just stands for any exotic spice; it is difficult for us today to understand how precious certain spices could be to the ancients.

 

[kmp]

[ But then again, we don't have much at all in the way of formal poetic structure anymore outside of academic exercises. It is my general impression that poetry as practiced, say, 100 years ago is dead as a popular artform. I've attended enough poetry slams and listened to enough rap music (some of it quite good) to believe it.

I think you may have an American perspective here. The formal verse of John Betjeman and Philip Larkin was remarkably popular here in England in the last quarter of the last century. English poets have retained far more formalism than their American counterparts, I think. And though there is no current formalist as popular as Larkin or Betjeman, many of the best contemporary English poets are still inclined to formal verse - at least on occasion.

 

[Cato]

I think you may have an American perspective here. The formal verse of John Betjeman and Philip Larkin was remarkably popular here in England in the last quarter of the last century. English poets have retained far more formalism than their American counterparts, I think. And though there is no current formalist as popular as Larkin or Betjeman, many of the best contemporary English poets are still inclined to formal verse - at least on occasion.

This is likely true; I should have couched this as "poetry practiced in the US", and is one of the reasons I'm glad for the input of this board.

 

[Andy]

Didn't catch this until after I had started: Note -is for -es in errantis. Man, can one word really screw up the process. And I wondered for a long time why Choir-singers would have udders

But to you, boy, the first small presents with no worship
wandering ivy with cyclamen here and there
and lotus mixed with the laughing hellebore the soil shall pour.
The goats themselves will bring home udders stretched by milk
nor the herd will fear the great lions.
The cradles themselves will pour for you charming flowers
Both the serpent and the deceitful herb of poison
Assyrium vulgo nascetur amomum.
And universally will the spice of Assyria spring forth.

 

[Andy]

Make that: Both the serpent and the deceitful herb of poison shall die

 

[Cato]

I think you've got it Andy; sorry about the "-is for -es" thing. I recall having to translate some homework passage from Horace in college that relied on this, and I struggled over it for quite a while. In running my translation in class the next day, the teacher pointed out the "-is for -es" thing, and I flummoxed "what's the point of these endings if they can be changed so easily?"

I like the way Virgil emphasized ipsa in two separate lines. As you put it "the goats themselves" (i.e. no one needs to milk them, they produce the milk on their own) and "the cradle itelf" (i.e. it will spontaneously bloom flowers. Also plural for singular here, I think; a common poetic device.) This would indeed be a wonderous age; compare it to the biblical "land of milk and honey".

 

[Cato]

Next bit...loads of mythology here...

At simul heroum laudes et facta parentis
iam legere et quae sit poteris cognoscere virtus,
molli paulatim flavescet campus arista
incultisque rubens pendebit sentibus uva
et durae quercus sudabunt roscida mella. (30)
Pauca tamen suberunt priscae vestigia fraudis,
quae temptare Thetin ratibus, quae cingere muris
oppida, quae iubeant telluri infindere sulcos.
alter erit tum Tiphys et altera quae vehat Argo
delectos heroas; erunt etiam altera bella (35)
atque iterum ad Troiam magnus mittetur Achilles.

simul may be better translated as "soon" rather than "at the same time"
legere = legeris
Note that campus is not the same as ager; why does Virgil use this word?
Thetin is a greek accusative form; Thetis was a sea-nymph and the mother of Achilles.
Tiphys was the pilot of the Argonauts.

 

[kmp]

legere = legeris

Are you sure, Cato? I always imagined it was an infinitive dependent on poteris.

 

[kmp]

alter erit tum Tiphys et altera quae vehat Argo
delectos heroas; erunt etiam altera bella (35)
atque iterum ad Troiam magnus mittetur Achilles.

Was Borges thinking of these lines when he wrote his magnificent La Noche Ciclica?

Lo superion los arduos alumnos de Pitagoras:
Los astres y los hombres vuelven ciclicamente;
Los atomos fatales repitiran la urgente
Afrodita de oro, los tebanos, las agoras.

The arduous pupils of Pythagoras knew it: stars and men return in cycles; the fatal atoms will repeat the urgent golden Aphrodite, the Thebans, the agoras.

I feel these lines of Vergil are a kind of cyclical time in themselves - they repeat down the centuries in other mouths.

 

[Cato]

legere = legeris...Are you sure, Cato? I always imagined it was an infinitive dependent on poteris.

I can see that as well--there's certainly no grammatical or sense reason why this couldn't be the case. I wonder if my interpolation legeris is overly-influenced by the way quae sit...virtus wraps the last part of the line into a single chunk (after the 2nd foot caesura ending in et).

 

[QMF]

Might I make a correction to the above: it should be lo supieron.

 

[kmp]

Might I make a correction to the above: it should be lo supieron.

mea culpa.

 

[Cato]

I feel these lines of Vergil are a kind of cyclical time in themselves - they repeat down the centuries in other mouths.

That's a neat way to put it kmp; the lines themselves have become what they talk about.

 

[Andy]

Ok, next chunk:

But soon the the praises of heroes and the deeds of the Father
already will be able to read and to know who may be Virtue
The field will gradually turn yellow with soft grain
And the red-tinged grape will hang from the unkept thorns
And the hard oak tree will sweat dewy honey.
Still the footsteps of ancient fraud will be a little near
which to tempt Thetis to the ships, which to surround at the walls
the towns, which may command the Earth to cleave furrows
Then there will be another Tiphys and another Argo which may sail
the chosen heroes; and also, there will be other wars
And moreover, for a second time shall the Great Achilles be sent towards Troy.

 

[Andy]

Make that in the second line: already you will be able to read...

 

[kmp]

alter erit tum Tiphys et altera quae vehat Argo
delectos heroas; erunt etiam altera bella (35)
atque iterum ad Troiam magnus mittetur Achilles.

Another echo - this time Yeats (Two Songs From a Play)-

Another Troy must rise and set,
Another lineage feed the crow,
Another Argo's painted prow
Drive to a flashier bauble yet.
The Roman Empire stood appalled:
It dropped the reins of peace and war
When that fierce virgin and her Star
Out of the fabulous darkness called.

 

[Cato]

Yeats' echo--referencing the "virgin and her Star"--plays upon a medieval misintepretation of this poem as prophesying the birth of Christ. It's not hard to see why; the description of the golden age echoes Isaiah in many ways, and the death of the serpent matches the Christian theological belief that the sin committed in the Garden of Eden was redeemed by Christ.

Scholars have proposed other possibilities for the puer from Roman history. The most likely IMO is the younger Marcellus, the son of Octavius' sister Octavia. Her husband the elder Marcellus died just before the truce of the 2nd Triumvirate was formed; although she was pregnant with Marcellus' child, she was married off to Antony as a way to seal the deal. This younger Marcellus is the same one Vergil describes in the memorable passage at the end of the sixth book of the Aeneid.

It is also quite possible Vergil had no real child in mind--the puer is just a metaphor for the newborn Roman state. I guess, ultimately, we'll never know.

 

[Cato]

Another chunk; and as I haven't fone one in a while, I'll provide my translation with it; feel free to comment:

Hinc, ubi iam firmata virum te fecerit aetas,
cedet et ipse mari vector nec nautica pinus
mutabit merces; omnis feret omnia tellus.
non rastros patietur humus, non vinea falcem, (40)
robustus quoque iam tauris iuga solvet arator;
nec varios discet mentiri lana colores,
ipse sed in pratis aries iam suave rubenti
murice, iam croceo mutabit vellera luto,
sponte sua sandyx pascentis vestiet agnos. (45)
'Talia saecla' suis dixerunt 'currite' fusis
concordes stabili fatorum numine Parcae.

"Here, when soon confirmed age shall have made you a man,
the sailor himself will give up the sea, nor will the nautical pine
exchange goods; every land will bring forth all things.
The soil will not endure hoes, nor the vine the pruning-hook,
Even the strong plowsman will then loosen the yolk from his cattle;
Nor shall wool learn to deceive (with) various colors,
But in the meadows the ram himself will change fleeces
now with charming purple blushing, now with yellowed saffron,
Scarlet of its own accord will clothe the grazing sheep.
"What ages run forth!" they remark to their spindles,
The harmonious Parcae with the firm will of Fate."

A few things I notice:

* The pattern of lines 40 and 41--three examples mentioned, the middle example borrowing most of its grammar from the first, and the third example amplified to match the size of the other two combined--is one I see repeated often in Latin poetry; the first stanzas of Horace's Integer vitae and Nunc est bibendum leap to mind.

* As this is a bucolic poem, Virgil keeps his examples rustic; even the reference to shipping is explained by the agricultural fact that omnis feret omnia tellus. Notice also how Virgil emphasizes this phrase by placing it right after the third-foot caesura, and that the line before and after place their caesurae in the fourth foot (befor nec in l.38 and non in l. 40); he does this to break up monotony and to single out this line in oral recitation.

* Rubenti is an interesting word which I have translated as "blushing"; I think it conveys more the process of colorization (i.e. that the color is a gradual change, like blushing or the ripening of fruit) than the result.

* Sponte sua sandyx is a cute alliteration meant to bind the entire phrase together; I could see this translated more freely as "a natural scarlet"

* I like the image in the last two lines; everything just described is seen from the point of view of the Parcae, who are watching these images on the thread as it leaves their spindle (kind of like the way we watch a movie). Virgil's aim is more than a pretty image; by putting these pictures on the thread of the fates, they become certain to occur stabili fatorum numine. This is a trick Virgil repeats in the Aeneid (book I, somewhere around l.250), the scene where Jupiter "unrolls the scroll a little further" to reveal the destiny of the Roman people.

 

[kmp]

nec varios discet mentiri lana colores,
ipse sed in pratis aries iam suave rubenti
murice, iam croceo mutabit vellera luto,
sponte sua sandyx pascentis vestiet agnos.

Some editors have been scathing about the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat sheep.

H E Gould (1967) : Vergil does not see that the picture is absurd.

T E Page (1898) : There is only a step from the sublime to the ridiculous and Vergil has here decidedly taken it.

What do the people here think?