Unexpected use of "autem"

[Felipe Canever]

Salvēte, omnēs!

This is my first post here in a long time, so it's nice to be back.

The farthest I got to in my Latin studies was finishing Lingua Latīna Per Sē Illūstrāta, Pars I: Familia Rōmāna plus some supplements a few years ago. Since then, I've only sporadically talked to a couple of friends in Latin. I would say I have a good foundation of basic Latin grammar, but there are still a lot of ground to cover until I can tackle more intermediate to advanced texts. What I've decided to do for this year is to re-read the whole book and eventually get to Rōma Aeterna and read all the other supplements, like Dē Bellō Gallicō. I also want to start talking in Latin more.

One of my biggest challenges is still to try to understand the differences between "sed", "at", "autem" and "vērō", but that's for another time. I've gotten to chapter VII of Familia Rōmāna and today I found a usage of "autem" that I don't quite get:

"Jūlia speculum sūmit et ante oculōs tenet. Puella sē in speculō videt et sē interrogat: "Estne foedus nāsus meus?" Nāsus ejus autem fōrmōsus nōn est. Jūlia rūrsus lacrimat."

What is "autem" in opposition to here? If I translated that to English, I would have something like ""Does my nose look ugly?" Her nose, however, isn't beautiful." Maybe it can mean something else?

I hope you guys can help shed some light on it for me. Thanks in advance!

 

[Pacifica]

Hey, welcome back!

Autem is a word that has no 1/1 English equivalent. "However" seems often to be the first translation of it that students learn, but it is a little misleading. Many translations are possible for autem: on the other hand, as for, however, but, furthermore, moreover, and... And sometimes it is best left untranslated.

Its function can be to denote a mild contrast or to mark a transition from one topic to the next or between steps in a reasoning. In the case of that particular sentence about Julia's nose, it's something like the latter. The author is saying something about Julia and her nose, and develops the topic by saying that indeed her nose isn't pretty... If you have to translate it there, maybe "and" or "and indeed" would be the best choice.

 

[Quasus]

In my language a contrasting conjunction or particle could indeed be used in the translation marking the slight contrast between the interest of the girl in the look of the nose and how her nose really looks.

 

[Felipe Canever]

Hey, welcome back!

Autem is a word that has no 1/1 English equivalent. "However" seems often to be the first translation of it that students learn, but it is a little misleading. Many translations are possible for autem: on the other hand, as for, however, but, furthermore, moreover, and... And sometimes it is best left untranslated.

Its function can be to denote a mild contrast or to mark a transition from one topic to the next or between steps in a reasoning. In the case of that particular sentence about Julia's nose, it's something like the latter. The author is saying something about Julia and her nose, and develops the topic by saying that indeed her nose isn't pretty... If you have to translate it there, maybe "and" or "and indeed" would be the best choice.

I think I get it now, though I don't think I would be able to use it myself, if you know what I mean. I'll just accept that it can also mean that. I also have this idea of opposition ingrained in my head, so it's going to be hard not to think of "however" or "on the other hand" every time I see "autem". But I'll try to keep what you said in mind. Grātiās!

 

[Felipe Canever]

In my language a contrasting conjunction or particle could indeed be used in the translation marking the slight contrast between the interest of the girl in the look of the nose and how her nose really looks.

Salvē et tū! What would your language be, Quasus?

 

[Pacifica]

I think I get it now, though I don't think I would be able to use it myself, if you know what I mean.

I don't reckon anyone is quite able to use that word naturally without having gotten a feel for it first by reading a certain amount of Latin (unless, perhaps, they speak a language where there's an exact equivalent).

 

[Felipe Canever]

I don't reckon anyone is quite able to use that word naturally without having gotten a feel for it first by reading a certain amount of Latin (unless, perhaps, they speak a language where there's an exact equivalent).

You're right. I still have a long road ahead.

 

[Pacifica]

The little words are often those one will master last. Especially particles. They don't really have any concrete meaning (unlike, say, a noun or a verb) but they convey something more like a "feeling" or perspective that can be hard to define, and they tend to be used in ways that are very idiomatic.

 

[Pacifica]

I sometimes miss autem in English. I mean, sometimes I find myself wanting to add the "autem feel" to a sentence, but there's no word quite like it in the situation.

 

[Quasus]

Salvē et tū! What would your language be, Quasus?

Russian. Just for the record, the conjunction would be а (a) and the particle, же (že).

 

[Felipe Canever]

I sometimes miss autem in English. I mean, sometimes I find myself wanting to add the "autem feel" to a sentence, but there's no word quite like it in the situation.

I envy you. Haha. I wish one day I'll feel the same.

 

[David Fields]

FC,

I have a similar problem with "enim". Particularly when its sense is something like "verily", I often don't understand the point of its use--which means I must be missing the feel it provides.

David Fields

 

[Godmy]

Salvē!

If you wish, you could imagine it being that autem is in opposition to what the reader may expect: the reader expects the girl sees herself more ugly than she really is as it happens with everyone in front of the mirror. The author however says that the nose is really ugly (and thus Julia's right!), contrary to reader's expectations

 

[Pacifica]

Latin likes interconnecting things. Latin will be full of those little words notably because it tends to make many logical connections explicit that would often be left implied in English.

For instance, compare these sentences (from a Latin exercises book that I'm writing and its answer key):

Latin sentence to be translated into English:

• Plācāre, domine! Volumus enim tibi pārēre.

Answer key:

• Be appeased, master! (For) we are willing to obey you.

The English makes sense with for, and the Latin would still make sense without enim. Yet, statistically speaking, Latin would be more likely to have the enim and English more likely not to have the "for".

In most cases, "for" will make at least some sense as a translation of enim, but will not always sound the most natural (especially if it's repeated throughout a long translation).

 

[Godmy]

FC,

I have a similar problem with "enim". Particularly when its sense is something like "verily", I often don't understand the point of its use--which means I must be missing the feel it provides.

David Fields

Mmm... I suppose my language is cool that we have quite direct translations to both enim and autem which are also postpositive in my language, so then I understand the words instinctively, but it is hard to explain. But I think that understanding it simply as a pospotive "because" is Ok! It's like the speaker thinks that it's better to put the emphasis on a different word in the clause (=the first word) than on the particle which signifies that the clause is an explanation of a sort (a particle that would normally go first; like quia/quod/nam...).

 

[Pacifica]

"because"

Yeah, really, in colloquial English "because" has all but taken over the meaning of "for" as well.

 

[Matthaeus]

FC,

I have a similar problem with "enim". Particularly when its sense is something like "verily", I often don't understand the point of its use--which means I must be missing the feel it provides.

David Fields

One could say the same thing about quidem.

 

[Felipe Canever]

FC,

I have a similar problem with "enim". Particularly when its sense is something like "verily", I often don't understand the point of its use--which means I must be missing the feel it provides.

David Fields

Fortunately I can understand "enim" more. The difference between "enim" and "nam" (and even "nam" and "quod"/"quia") was also something I struggled with, and sometimes still do. But I haven't read much Latin, so I'm hoping it'll become clear with enough exposure and time.

Salvē!

If you wish, you could imagine it being that autem is in opposition to what the reader may expect: the reader expects the girl sees herself more ugly than she really is as it happens with everyone in front of the mirror. The author however says that the nose is really ugly (and thus Julia's right!), contrary to reader's expectations

Salvē, Mārtīne! Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.

Latin likes interconnecting things. Latin will be full of those little words notably because it tends to make many logical connections explicit that would often be left implied in English.

For instance, compare these sentences (from a Latin exercises book that I'm writing and its answer key):

Latin sentence to be translated into English:

• Plācāre, domine! Volumus enim tibi pārēre.

Answer key:

• Be appeased, master! (For) we are willing to obey you.

The English makes sense with for, and the Latin would still make sense without enim. Yet, statistically speaking, Latin would be more likely to have the enim and English more likely not to have the "for".

In most cases, "for" will make at least some sense as a translation of enim, but will not always sound the most natural (especially if it's repeated throughout a long translation).

I like this analysis. I'll keep that in mind next time I try to compose my own (basic) Latin.