Unique Offertory in the Mass for the Dead

Nemesio

New Member
Hello folks,

I apologize if this post is inappropriate for this forum. I am finishing my dissertation on the Mass for the Dead and I have encountered what I believe to be a unique text. Although I have a fair degree of familiarity with Latin, this is beyond my ken and I need help. Sadly, there is no punctuation to even give a sense of the phrasing, so I'm not going to include what I think is going on as not to obscure any assistance I might receive. Also, as this is copied from a manuscript, I cannot guarantee that I have gotten every letter right (although I'm 95% sure I have).

Jesu bone triumphator mortis in cruceat tolle oculos clementia rutilos et respice in faciem ecclesiae matris nostrae indue quae plorat filios suos fratres nostros defunctos qui pro culpa offensionis gemunt in cole sub mortis caligine ubi nullos ordo set miserabilis inhabitat ortor. [These two last words are very hard to read.]

Christe propicius iudex ultra David manseutudinem ut super exaltet misericordia iudicium suscipe pro mortuis quos fides catholica sepelit sacrificium ecclesiae matris illud revoluens quod memor figulus figmenti olim per prophetam prompsisti ego feci ego feram ego usque ad canos et senectam portabo ego salvabo.

The first part I can translate enough to get the gist, but I'm not confident in it.

Kind Jesus, you will triumph over death through suffering. Lift [your?] shining and merciful eyes and gaze upon the appearance of our mother church. Clothe those who lament his [this seems like it should be 'tuos,' or 'your'] sons, our brother dead who, according to the fault of sin, groan inwardly [?] under the gloom of death where no order [something...miserable inhabit is born]

The second part I am completely lost until the end, which is so bizarre, I'm astonished it was used at Mass.

Christ, propitious judge, in clemency beyond David...[no clue what's going on]...I made, I bring, I will always save until I bear old age and grey hair.

So, any guidance would be most deeply appreciated. I thank you for any help you can provide and am,

Respectfully,
Nemesio
 

ScottG

New Member
Nemesio dixit:
Jesu bone triumphator mortis in cruceat tolle oculos clementia rutilos et respice in faciem ecclesiae matris nostrae indue quae plorat filios suos fratres nostros defunctos qui pro culpa offensionis gemunt in cole sub mortis caligine ubi nullos ordo set miserabilis inhabitat ortor. [These two last words are very hard to read.]

Christe propicius iudex ultra David manseutudinem ut super exaltet misericordia iudicium suscipe pro mortuis quos fides catholica sepelit sacrificium ecclesiae matris illud revoluens quod memor figulus figmenti olim per prophetam prompsisti ego feci ego feram ego usque ad canos et senectam portabo ego salvabo.
Good and death-triumphant Jesus, raise in mercy the red eyes and assume and look upon the face of our mother the church which wails over her sons, our dead brothers, who on account of the guilt of sin groan in <<cole>> under the darkness of death where order lives for none but for the miserable <<ortor>>.

O Christ, a judge <<propicius>> beyond merciful David so that your judgement exalts beyond your mercy, look upon these dead whom, faithful, the <<catholica(e)?>> Eucharist of the catholic mother church buried, that one (the Eucharist) returning because I, sometimes remembering the potter for fixing. You promised through the prophet, "I made, I will bear, continuously I will carry and I will save to the dogs and old age.

This is my current translation of it. Words in <<arrows>> signify that I'm not confident enough in their definition or form to translate them. I would suggest going back to the manuscript and verifying that <<catholica>> in the second segment is <<catholica>> and not <<catholicae>>. It makes sense to me that it would be <<catholicae>> because it would then go with the rest of the feminine genitives in that section. Isolated, I'm not sure how to take it. Perhaps an ablative form? I would be lost though as to the "correct" translation. It seems clear to me though that <<sacraficium>> is a neuter nominative, not an accusative. Also, check <<propicius>> to make sure that it isn't <<propitius>>. <<Cole>> and <<ortor>> I was unsure of lexically.

I think that sums up my thoughts on it!
SG
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
The last part if from Isaiah 46:4 usque ad senectam ego ipse et usque ad canos ego portabo ego feci et ego feram et ego portabo et salvabo

And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you : I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you

canis is 3rd declension. Canos is from canus, grey hairs

so here:

once you promised through the prophet, "I have made, I will bear, I will carry right up to grey hairs and old age, I will save"
 

Nemesio

New Member
Dear Scott,

This is exceptional. I thank you for your translation, which is vastly superior to my inexpert one. If I might humbly examine it in an effort to refine it.

ScottG dixit:
Good and death-triumphant Jesus, raise in mercy the red eyes and assume and look upon the face of our mother the church which wails over her sons, our dead brothers, who on account of the guilt of sin groan in <<cole>> under the darkness of death where order lives for none but for the miserable <<ortor>>.
I believe in medieval Latin, rutilos can be rendered 'shining,' which I suspect makes more sense.

I now believe that 'in cole' is should be 'incolae' (the 'ae' form is rendered 'e' consistently in this manuscript, as it is in many). Perhaps it should be '...who, on account of sin, the inhabitants under the darkness groan...'

I've agonized over the last word, and I'm fairly confident it is ortor. I found this entry:
ortor, ortari, ortatus, v
Conjugation: 1, dep
1. beget
2. engender/produce/generate (offspring)
3. give birth/rise to
4. procreate

Age: Latin not in use in Classical times (6-10) Christian
Source: Latham, Revised Medieval Word List, 1980
I do not know if this helps...

ScottG dixit:
O Christ, a judge <<propicius>> beyond merciful David so that your judgement exalts beyond your mercy, look upon these dead whom, faithful, the <<catholica(e)?>> Eucharist of the catholic mother church buried, that one (the Eucharist) returning because I, sometimes remembering the potter for fixing. You promised through the prophet, "I made, I will bear, continuously I will carry and I will save to the dogs and old age.
I'm certain that 'propicius' can be rendered 'propitius;' the scribes in the manuscripts did not have spellcheck (c/t transpositions, especially preceding the letter 'i,' is fairly common).

Why can't 'catholica' be an adjective to 'fides?' Both can be in the singular, feminine, nominative.

I have no idea what this potter reference is doing here.

I thank you again for your help and look forward to your thoughts on my comments. I am,

Most respectfully,
Nemesio
 

Nemesio

New Member
Cinefactus dixit:
The last part is from Isaiah 46:4
How exceptionally embarassing! I thank you for this extremely helpful observation which I should have caught myself. I am,

Appreciatively,
Nemesio
 

Nemesio

New Member
Briefly, I might add, that 'figmentus' is used in context with 'figulus' in Romans 9:20-21 in which it is translated form (the 'form' molded by the 'potter').

Nemesio
 

ScottG

New Member
Cinefactus, good eye! I was a little rushed earlier and went with the first that popped in my head-didn't make too much sense then, I ought to have re-evaluated!

Nemesio,
My understanding of <<rutilos>> as red came from an presupposed understanding of red eyes following a death, i.e. from crying. I know very little of Medieval Latin, however, and if you believe it to fit context better, absolutely!
<<incolae>> sounds good to me-the translation seems to work.
<<propicius>> would seem to make sense as <<propitius>> one of the expected bumps in working with hand-copied manuscripts.
I'm not sure that I understand the potter reference-its entirely possible that my dictionary is lacking other interpretations of the word, I don't have my OLD with me. Of course, it's also possible that it's a reference to God the Father as the potter.
I originally read <<fides>> as an accusative plural, in agreement with <<quos>>. However, upon further examination, I'm not confident about that interpretation...as with <<canos>> I may have made an error. <<fides catholica>> is a plausible reading and changes the rest of my translation. At this point, I'm lacking in an answer and invite my fellows on this site to help shed some light!

Thanks all,
Scott
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
How about:
O Christ, a favourable judge greater than compassionate David, such that your mercy exalts your judgement on high, receive on behalf of the dead, whom the catholic faith of mother church buries, reflecting upon that which, a potter mindful of his creation, you promised through the prophet of old, "I have made, I will bear, I will carry right up to grey hairs and old age, I will save."

For the potter, see Jer 18:4-6 & Rom 9:21.
 

Nemesio

New Member
Okay. How about this:

Kindly Jesus, one who triumphs over death by suffering [there is no nominalized word for the verb 'triumph'], lift the shining eyes of mercy and gaze upon the face of our mother church. Clothe those for whom she weeps, her sons, our dead brothers, the inhabitants who, according to the guilt of sin, groan beneath the darkness of death where none [not sure yet.].

Christ, favorable judge, your merciful judgment shall exalt above and beyond the clemency of David. Accept the sacrifice of the mother church on behalf of the dead which the catholic faithful buried, reflecting upon that which [something about a potter of forms] you promised formerly through the prophet: Isaiah quotation.

This seems closer to what's going on, though I'm never confident when I translate long passages. Any thoughts? I thank you and am,

Respectfully,
Nemesio
 

Nemesio

New Member
Cinefactus dixit:
...such that your mercy exalts your judgement on high
Ah, I see. Misericordia in the nominative and iudicium in the accusative. I was seeing the former as an adjective, but I suppose that is not consistent with normative word order and begs the question 'who is doing the exalting?'

It's in the subjunctive, though, so perhaps '...such that your mercy shall exalt your judgment...'

I'm still unclear on 'super,' though. Its distance from 'misericordia' seems a bit awkward.

What about something like '...such that, above judgment, mercy shall exalt.' I'm not sure that's any better with respect to proximity, though...

Cinefactus dixit:
...a potter mindful of his creation...
Ah ha! That is superb.

I thank you for assisting (and being patient with) me and am,

Appreciatively,
Nemesio
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
Aha, yes, I think: so that mercy rises above judgement

I would agree that shining is more likely than red. There is no reason why Christ should be weeping over the faithful being welcomed into heaven...
 

Nemesio

New Member
As I pound my head against the keyboard ( :brickwall2: ), I'm wondering if the term 'ordo' towards the end of the first half of the prayer might refer to some order of monks tying in with 'fratres,' not meaning 'brothers in Christ' but 'Brother monks.'

Otherwise, I am unclear what 'order' is doing (irrespective of 'ortor' or whatever word that is supposed to be). Does this resonate with anyone? I am,

Respectfully,
Nemesio
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
Oops, missed the sacrificium

O Christ, a favourable judge greater than compassionate David, so that mercy rises above judgement, receive for the dead, whom the catholic faith buries, the sacrifice of mother church which recalls that which, a potter mindful of his creation, you promised through the prophet of old, "I have made, I will bear, I will carry right up to grey hairs and old age, I will save."
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
Could you perhaps post a photo of the document. There are a few typos towards the end of the first passage, and I can't quite put it together.

I am guessing in cruceat is actually in cruce +/- at

O good Jesus, the victor of death in the cross and raise your shining eyes in mercy and look upon the face of our mother church clothe her which weeps for her sons our deceased brothers...
 

Nemesio

New Member
:banana:

It's orror not ortor. It's a reference from Job 10:22:

A land of misery and darkness, where the shadow of death, and no order, but everlasting horror dwelleth (Douay Rheims).

So this text reads: Where no order but miserable horror dwells.

I deeply grateful all the help that I have received for this text and in such short order. I am,

Most appreciatively,
Nemesio
 

Cinefactus

Censor
Staff member
In which case it must be nullus ordo sed
 

Nemesio

New Member
Cinefactus dixit:
Could you perhaps post a photo of the document.
I am afraid I cannot; I do not own a scanner.

Cinefactus dixit:
There are a few typos towards the end of the first passage, and I can't quite put it together.
Don't you mean scribos? Just kidding.

Cinefactus dixit:
I am guessing in cruceat is actually in cruce +/- at[/i]

You are most certainly right. This scribe is particularly careful to include hyphens where there is any significant distance between syllables and there is no hyphen between 'cruce' and 'at.'

Cinefactus dixit:
O good Jesus, the victor of death in the cross and raise your shining eyes in mercy and look upon the face of our mother church clothe her which weeps for her sons our deceased brothers...
'Victor' is certainly better than my clumsy 'one who triumphs,' but I'm not sure about 'at' now. It seems to interrupt the flow.

Hmm.
Nemesio
 

Nemesio

New Member
Cinefactus dixit:
In which case it must be nullus ordo sed
Ugh. It is indeed 'nullus;' that was indeed a typo on my part. But it does read 'set;' there's no ambiguity. I just took it for a scribal variant (like 'propicius'), given that both letters are alveolar plosives. I thank you again and am,

Respectfully,
Nemesio
 

Nemesio

New Member
It's attolle. This scribe is inconsistent with hyphens at line breaks, particularly when the orphaned syllable is proximate to the margin.

This has been an exhilarating experience! I thank you again and am,

Respectfully,
Nemesio
 
Top