Vergil 6:36-39

 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens

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in orbe lacteo
One interesting example I've noted recently in English is "create", which I now regularly hear people pronounce as one syllable, or else almost one.
Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard that before... How does it get pronounced that way? Does it sound like "Crate" or "Crete"? :confused:
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima

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Canada
One interesting example I've noted recently in English is "create", which I now regularly hear people pronounce as one syllable, or else almost one.
Never heard that. It must not be a Canadian English thing.
 
B

Bitmap

Guest

Ah. I've seen that in a bunch of places in Homer, but I didn't know it happened in Latin poetry as well.

Another frequent example I can think of would be forms of desum, like deesse (either --v or -v) or deest (either -- or -) or other instances where 2 es meet

(A quick Vergil example from G 2,223: sí deerúnt, rarúm // pecoríqu(e) et uítibus álmis)
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris

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Ah. I've seen that in a bunch of places in Homer, but I didn't know it happened in Latin poetry as well.
It may not be quite the same thing in Homer. For example, in Il. 1.1

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
- u u - u u - - - u u ? u u - -

It looks like the εω should be scanned -, but this does not necessarily arise from a natural pronunciation of εω as a single syllable. Rather, at an earlier stage in the language Πηληϊάδεω would have been *Πηληϊάδᾱο. In this form the line would scan perfectly well, with the ο eliding:

*μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδᾱ' Ἀχιλῆος
- u u - u u - - - u u - u u - -

Early Greek hexameter tradition preserves formulae even when, as in this case, subsequent sound changes mean that they no longer scan properly. Of course, it's possible that later bards or rhapsodes reciting the line did pronounce it as a single syllable, but this would then be an artificial pronunciation created to explain the apparent metrical irregularity.

In the case of Vergil, there's no question of preserving earlier formulas from a preceding state of the language, so I'm guessing that there was a genuine Latin pronunciation of dehinc as *denc, or similar. Of course, it could also be an artificial pronunciation for the sake of the meter...
 

Aurifex

Aedilis

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Of course, it could also be an artificial pronunciation for the sake of the meter...
It's difficult to tell quite what you mean by "artificial", but I think the monosyllabic pronunciation would still have had to come within certain bounds of naturalness to be acceptable to Roman ears - ears contemporary with those of Vergil, at any rate. In serious verse, poetic licence only allows you to go so far.
 
E

Etaoin Shrdlu

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In serious verse, poetic licence only allows you to go so far.
The limit is subjective, though. So when we're considering another language, another culture and another time, it may well be misleading to apply our standards, even if we all agree on them, which is unlikely.
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris

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I think the monosyllabic pronunciation would still have had to come within certain bounds of naturalness to be acceptable to Roman ears
I agree, especially in this case where it is quite a widespread feature. Although I would be interested to see some contemporary evidence, or a grammarian's discussion of this sort of thing.
 
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