My bad. I forgot about the "tends to" part. Adding fere, as Honconus initially did, should be good enough.
Welcome for commenting on my english-latin translation (updated everyday)
- Thread starter Honconus
- Start date
Thanks so much, Pacifica! It will be edited.
Aug 13, 2020.
“My desire and wish is that the things I start with should be so obvious that you wonder why I spend my time stating them. This is what I aim at because the point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it.” Bertrand Russell
Translatio mea:
Percupio res initiari meas manifestas ut haud necessaria praedicatio sit. Id quod peto est, nam locus philosophicus aliquo sic simplici sine praedicatione incipiendus est, et aliquo ita admirabilie perficiendus in quod nemo credit.
Pacifica’s suggested translation:
Illud volo atque opto, ea quibus incipiam tam esse manifesta ut mireris cur tempus iis dicendis comsumam. Ideo ad hoc tendo, quia philosophia eo spectat, ut re incipias tam simplici quae dictu indigna videatur, desinas autem tam admirabili* ut eam nemo credat.
“My desire and wish is that the things I start with should be so obvious that you wonder why I spend my time stating them. This is what I aim at because the point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it.” Bertrand Russell
Translatio mea:
Percupio res initiari meas manifestas ut haud necessaria praedicatio sit. Id quod peto est, nam locus philosophicus aliquo sic simplici sine praedicatione incipiendus est, et aliquo ita admirabilie perficiendus in quod nemo credit.
Pacifica’s suggested translation:
Illud volo atque opto, ea quibus incipiam tam esse manifesta ut mireris cur tempus iis dicendis comsumam. Ideo ad hoc tendo, quia philosophia eo spectat, ut re incipias tam simplici quae dictu indigna videatur, desinas autem tam admirabili* ut eam nemo credat.
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There's no big grammar mistake here, but it's a little unclear. Not sure I would have understood what you meant without seeing the original.
You really need quod or quia rather than nam here. Id quod peto est is a little unclear, too.
There is no way this can convey the idea of "the point of philosophy".
Again, rather confusing.
This would be just about acceptable if the verb of the relative clause were in the subjunctive, to make a relative clause of result after ita.
Besides the typo in admirabilie, there are two other little issues: 1) "something" in cases other than the nom. and acc. is usually expressed by (aliqua) re, (alicuius) rei, etc. rather than aliquo, alicuius, etc., which are usually reserved for "someone". 2) You don't have to resort to the late Latin construction credere in, which is most of the time used in religious contexts for "to believe in (God or the like)", when "to believe (something)" can translate to credo + direct object.
I would suggest something like this for the entire sentence:
Illud volo atque opto, ea quibus incipiam tam esse manifesta ut mireris cur tempus ea dicendo consumam. Ideo ad hoc tendo, quia philosophia eo spectat, ut re incipias tam simplici quae dictu indigna videatur, finias autem tam admirabili* ut eam nemo credat.
*Not an ideal translation for "paradoxal", far from it, but I made this translation quickly before going offline and kept the word you'd used because I couldn't find anything better on the spot.
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Thanks so much for your most beautiful translation!! I will update it with your translation first.
Aug 14, 2020
I am now reading a Latin composition book, Elegantiae Latinae. I am practicing some examples according to hints in this book.
1. C. Julius then far surpassed all his predecessors and contemporaries in pleasantness and facetiousness; and though he was not an impetuous orator, yet no man's speeches were ever more seasoned with urbanity, wit, and sweetness. (Hint: Begin by the ablatives and then the nominative.)
My translation:
Suavitate et facetiis Iulius Caesar tum longe omnes praestavit proximos et aequales illorum temporum. Urbanitate, dicacitate et dulcedine nulli orationes conditiores fuerunt quam illi, cum haud acer orator esset.
2. As I frequenlly revolve in my mind, and retrace in my memory, the annals of antiquity, those men appear to me very fortunate indeed, who in a well-constituted republic, after having arrived at the snininit of glory and honors, could hold such a course of life, as to be able to pursue their employments without danger or live in retirement with dignity. (Hint: Here begin by the dative, and change the verbs revolve and retrace into participles to agree with the dative: but in order to see the necessity of this transposition, begin by the nominatives and preserve the grammatical order of the English, in these two examples ; and their inelegance, when compared with the other, will immediately appear.)
My translation:
Mihi, volutanti animo, et repetenti annalibus antiquis, quae memoria mea sunt, illi ostendunt fere fortunati, qui publica in re instituta recte, post gloriae rerum gestarum floruerunt, tam vitae tenorem tenere potuerunt, ut negotium persequi sine periculo, aut cum dignitate vivere otium potuerint.
I am now reading a Latin composition book, Elegantiae Latinae. I am practicing some examples according to hints in this book.
1. C. Julius then far surpassed all his predecessors and contemporaries in pleasantness and facetiousness; and though he was not an impetuous orator, yet no man's speeches were ever more seasoned with urbanity, wit, and sweetness. (Hint: Begin by the ablatives and then the nominative.)
My translation:
Suavitate et facetiis Iulius Caesar tum longe omnes praestavit proximos et aequales illorum temporum. Urbanitate, dicacitate et dulcedine nulli orationes conditiores fuerunt quam illi, cum haud acer orator esset.
2. As I frequenlly revolve in my mind, and retrace in my memory, the annals of antiquity, those men appear to me very fortunate indeed, who in a well-constituted republic, after having arrived at the snininit of glory and honors, could hold such a course of life, as to be able to pursue their employments without danger or live in retirement with dignity. (Hint: Here begin by the dative, and change the verbs revolve and retrace into participles to agree with the dative: but in order to see the necessity of this transposition, begin by the nominatives and preserve the grammatical order of the English, in these two examples ; and their inelegance, when compared with the other, will immediately appear.)
My translation:
Mihi, volutanti animo, et repetenti annalibus antiquis, quae memoria mea sunt, illi ostendunt fere fortunati, qui publica in re instituta recte, post gloriae rerum gestarum floruerunt, tam vitae tenorem tenere potuerunt, ut negotium persequi sine periculo, aut cum dignitate vivere otium potuerint.
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Praesto takes the dative of the person surpassed.
Proximi doesn't mean predecessors (it means close people, family or friends). Maybe maiores would work.
Unlike English "and", which is most of the time used only between the last two elements in a list (e.g. "urbanity, wit, and sweetness"), et is usually used either between every element (e.g. urbanitate et dicacitate et dulcedine) or not at all (e.g. urbanitate, dicacitate, dulcedine).
Nulli and illi would be better in the genitive.
It would be better to keep the order of clauses the same as in the original, and to translate "and" and "yet": cumque haud acer orator esset, tamen urbanitate et dicacitate et duclcedine etc.
Repetenti should take an accusative object.
The addition of the clause quae memoria mea sunt is unnecessary and unclear. "As I... retrace in my memory" can simply translate to memoria (abl.) repetenti.
Ostendunt means "they show (something)". "They appear" = videntur.
Fere fortunati doesn't really convey the same idea as "very fortunate indeed". Fortunatissimi quidem could work.
That's grammatically correct, but the word order is a little strange for classical prose. I would have said in re publica recte instituta.
The grammar here just doesn't cohere. I think you meant to say something like "after they flourished with the glory of achievements". If you wanted to say that, though, gloria would need to be in the ablative, and you'd need postquam rather than post alone. Post is "after" as a preposition, as in "after dinner", or as an adverb, equivalent to "afterwards" or "later". "After" as a conjunction (i.e. introducing a whole clause, as in "after this happened") is postquam (literally "later than"; it can also be written as two words, post quam).
However, a better translation would be gloriae et honorum fastigium adepti.
Tam doesn't work. It means "so (much)", "to such a degree". You need eum instead, in agreement with tenorem.
I guess you may or may not like the etymological repetition in tenorem tenere. Personally, I don't and would have said cursum instead of tenorem. Cursum tenere is also a more common expression.
You could make that negotia to match the plural "employments".
Vivo usually doesn't take an object (exeptions being vitam and neuter pronouns). You need in otio vivere.
This passage reminds me of one by Cicero. I wonder if the author of your book adapted it, or if they downright took an English translation of it and gave it as an excercise to see how close students could get to Cicero's original.
Here's Cicero's original:
Cogitanti mihi saepe numero et memoria vetera repetenti perbeati fuisse, Quinte frater, illi videri solent, qui in optima re publica, cum et honoribus et rerum gestarum gloria florerent, eum vitae cursum tenere potuerunt, ut vel in negotio sine periculo vel in otio cum dignitate esse possent.
Don't worry; it would have been difficult (if not impossible) to arrive at exactly the same thing from the English.
This too is adapted from Cicero. It isn't about Julius Caesar.
Festivitate igitur et facetiis, inquam, C. Iulius L. f. et superioribus et aequalibus suis omnibus praestitit oratorque fuit minime ille quidem vehemens, sed nemo unquam urbanitate, nemo lepore, nemo suavitate conditior.
Thanks so much for your comments and your effort of looking for the original texts for me, Pacifica! I am utterly surprised by your familiarity with the corpus of Latin literature, particularly works of Cicero.
When I was translating the sentences, I felt with uncertainty that they might come out of some classical texts because the utterance was so periphrastic. Edward Valpy, the author of that composition book, seems to make all exercise examples adepted from classical texts.
I will later post my revision based on your comments. Your opinion is the very thing I care most about.
Thanks again!
I didn't recognize the one about C. Julius, but since the other one was from Cicero I suspected that the one about C. Julius likely came from some Roman author, too. Then I searched and found.
You're welcome.
Revised translation based on Pacifica‘s comments:
1. Suavitate et facetiis C. Iulius tum longe omnes praestavit maioribus et aequalibus illorum temporum. Cumque haud acer orator esset, urbanitate et dicacitate et dulcedine nullius orationes conditiores fuerunt quam illius.
2. Mihi, volutanti animo, et repetenti res memoria, illi ostendunt videntur fortunatissimi, qui publica in re instituta recte, postquam gloriae et honorum fastigium adepti fuerunt (or: gloriae rerum gestarum floruerunt), eum tenorem vitae tenere potuerunt, ut negotia persequi sine periculo, aut cum dignitate vivere in otio potuerint.
Pacificae gratias ago!
I am looking for a translatable passage, and hopefully my translation is coming up soon.
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You forgot to change omnes to the dative.
You forgot to remove ostendunt.
I still think that word order sounds a little odd, but since there's no actual grammar mistake there I guess you may keep it if you really like it.
That's OK. However, just so you know, adepti sunt would be more classical. Classical Latin usually formed the perfect passive with present forms of esse, though later authors (and even some not-so-late ones) sometimes used the perfect of esse instead. You could also do without a postquam clause altogether and just say gloriae et honorum fastigium adepti, as I suggested.
Gloria should be in the ablative.
My apologies for my carelessness! It will be updated soon
After some mistakes were corrected:
1. Suavitate et facetiis C. Iulius tum longe omnibus praestavit maioribus et aequalibus illorum temporum. Cumque haud acer orator esset, urbanitate et dicacitate et dulcedine nullius orationes conditiores fuerunt quam illius.
2. Mihi, volutanti animo, et repetenti res memoria, illi videntur fortunatissimi, qui in optima republica, gloriae et honorum fastigium adepti (or: postquam gloria rerum gestarum floruerunt), eum tenorem vitae tenere potuerunt, ut negotia persequi sine periculo, aut cum dignitate vivere in otio potuerint.
Thanks again to Pacifica!
Aug 16th, 2020
“I am normally said to be free to the degree to which no man or body of men interferes with my activity. Political liberty in this sense is simply the area within which a man can act unobstructed by others. If I am prevented by others from doing what I could otherwise do, I am to that degree unfree; and if this area is contracted by other men beyond a certain minimum, I can be described as being coerced, or, it may be, enslaved.” Isaiah Berlin
My translation:
Eatenus normaliter habeor liber, quatenus aut nemo aut nullius corpus agilitatem meam impedit. Eo sensu libertas publica vero locus est ubi facta ullius habantur inoffensa ab aliis. Si prohibitus sum facere quod aliter possem, ita non liber sum. Si hoc locus contractus aliquantulo aliis est, discriberi possum aut coercitus, aut, ut videatur, in servatutem redigere.
“I am normally said to be free to the degree to which no man or body of men interferes with my activity. Political liberty in this sense is simply the area within which a man can act unobstructed by others. If I am prevented by others from doing what I could otherwise do, I am to that degree unfree; and if this area is contracted by other men beyond a certain minimum, I can be described as being coerced, or, it may be, enslaved.” Isaiah Berlin
My translation:
Eatenus normaliter habeor liber, quatenus aut nemo aut nullius corpus agilitatem meam impedit. Eo sensu libertas publica vero locus est ubi facta ullius habantur inoffensa ab aliis. Si prohibitus sum facere quod aliter possem, ita non liber sum. Si hoc locus contractus aliquantulo aliis est, discriberi possum aut coercitus, aut, ut videatur, in servatutem redigere.
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That's not an easy one.
Why not dicor for "I am said"?
Agilitas is the wrong word for "activity".
Your use of aut... aut is weird.
I might suggest something like quatenus nec ullus homo nec hominum ulla societas actionem meam impedit.
I guess the best word for "body (of men)" could be discussed.
Your uses of locus, vero and ullius don't work. And, well, the rest doesn't, either.
Hmm... I'd say maybe something like this:
Libertas publica hoc sensu nihil aliud est quam, ut ita dicam, spatium earum rerum quas ita licet agere ut alii non obstent.
I added ut itam dicam, "so to speak", because that use of spatium is a little strange, though it makes sense figuratively. Authors like Cicero often added phrases like that in such situations.
For this part perhaps you could say something like:
et si hoc spatium ab aliis ita contrahitur ut minus fiat certa quadam mensura quae ut minimum tolerari potest
For the difference between aut and vel, see here.
Servatutem isn't a word. It's servitutem.
The infinitive redigere doesn't make sense here. A perfect passive participle would.
Ut videatur doesn't seem to work for "it may be". Perhaps you could say fortasse or ut fieri potest. I'm not entirely sure, though. Actually, I'm under the impression that simply etiam would feel more natural there.
That normaliter is rather un-Latin. Maybe fere instead could work.
Why not dicor for "I am said"?
Nullius corpus means "no one's body", as in the body of one man.
Agilitas is the wrong word for "activity".
Your use of aut... aut is weird.
I might suggest something like quatenus nec ullus homo nec hominum ulla societas actionem meam impedit.
I guess the best word for "body (of men)" could be discussed.
I'm not at all sure how to translate "political liberty". Let's keep libertas publica for now; I guess it makes at least some sort of sense.
Your uses of locus, vero and ullius don't work. And, well, the rest doesn't, either.
Hmm... I'd say maybe something like this:
Libertas publica hoc sensu nihil aliud est quam, ut ita dicam, spatium earum rerum quas ita licet agere ut alii non obstent.
I added ut itam dicam, "so to speak", because that use of spatium is a little strange, though it makes sense figuratively. Authors like Cicero often added phrases like that in such situations.
Prohibitus sum is in the wrong tense ("I was prevented" instead of "I am prevented").
Ita doesn't work. Eatenus would.
Your translation doesn't convey the meaning of the original at all. If mean "If this place has been contracted somewhat by others". Hoc also fails to agree with locus.
For this part perhaps you could say something like:
et si hoc spatium ab aliis ita contrahitur ut minus fiat certa quadam mensura quae ut minimum tolerari potest
You mean describi.
Your use of aut... aut doesn't work very well here. Vel would be a better choice for this "or", and there's no need for two.
For the difference between aut and vel, see here.
Servatutem isn't a word. It's servitutem.
The infinitive redigere doesn't make sense here. A perfect passive participle would.
Ut videatur doesn't seem to work for "it may be". Perhaps you could say fortasse or ut fieri potest. I'm not entirely sure, though. Actually, I'm under the impression that simply etiam would feel more natural there.
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Thanks so much, Pacifica! I am correcting my translation according to your comments.
I am wondering what the grammatical construction it is for “quae ut minimum tolerari potest,” since I seldom saw “quae ut.” Could it be only “ut” without “quae?”