When word fails music speaks and love prevails

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Translating " When word fails music speaks and love prevails" from english to latin.
Im having trouble with fails, speaks and prevails as i dont know how the endings effect the translation.

This is what i have so far.
"Ubi verbum deficio musica fari et amor praesto"

Also i am not sure about the last word.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Matthaeus

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Re: I think it's almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Well, it looks like you have all the right verbs, so let's tweak a little their inflections and the general construction. "When word fails music speaks and love prevails" would be Cum verba deficiunt musica fatur et amor praestat. I'm not sure if fatur is the right verb to go with musica, I would prefer musica sonit or sonat.
 

Cato

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Re: I think it's almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

mattheus dixit:
Well, it looks like you have all the right verbs, so let's tweak a little their inflections and the general construction. "When word fails music speaks and love prevails" would be Cum verba deficiunt musica fatur et amor praestat. I'm not sure if fatur is the right verb to go with musica, I would prefer musica sonit or sonat.
Regarding fatur, the verb needs to be one that connects back to verba (i.e. speaking) or the contrast doesn't work (e.g. in English, does "when words fail, music plays" have the same impact?). I agree with Mattheus that sonit would better apply to musica and that both words and music can sonere, but does it have the same impact? Musica can't literally fatur, but metaphorically it may be a better image for the implied contrast in communication...
 

Gregorius

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Also, "musicus,-a,-um" is an adjective. If we assume it to be used here in the neuter plural nominative (i.e. "all things musical"), then whatever verb we use must be changed to agree with a plural subject ("fantur" or "sonant").
 

Bitmap

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Gregorius dixit:
Also, "musicus,-a,-um" is an adjective. If we assume it to be used here in the neuter plural nominative (i.e. "all things musical"), then whatever verb we use must be changed to agree with a plural subject ("fantur" or "sonant").
I assume he just used the noun "musica, -ae f."
 

Gregorius

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Bitmap dixit:
Gregorius dixit:
Also, "musicus,-a,-um" is an adjective. If we assume it to be used here in the neuter plural nominative (i.e. "all things musical"), then whatever verb we use must be changed to agree with a plural subject ("fantur" or "sonant").
I assume he just used the noun "musica, -ae f."
I'll double-check, but I don't think such a noun exists.
 

Matthaeus

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Then how else, Gregorius, would you say music in Latin? You're only trying to complicate things by calling that a neuter plural.
 

Gregorius

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

I've just consulted my dictionary, and according to Oxford, "musica" as a noun can only mean "female musician." There's also an entry for the adverb "musice" ("musically"), which implies the existence of the adjective "musicus, -a, -um," although it is not listed. Nowhere do I see "musica" as a first-declension noun denoting music itself.

The term "musica" known to modern Romance speakers ("musique" in the case of French) has one of two possible origins: a projection of what was originally a neuter plural into feminine singular classification or an abbreviation of "ars musica." Experts believe the latter explanation is the correct one.

So to answer your question, Mattheus, I'd say "ars musica" for music as a general art form or subject of study and "melos" for the tune of a specific song. Somewhat humorously, this very issue is part of a debate about how to translate the title of the Latin Wikipedia article on Disney's "High School Musical." My personal translation is "Comoedia Musica Scholae."
 

scrabulista

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

WORDS has musica, -ae as "music." as well as the 1st/2nd declension adjective.
perseus.tufts.edu has musica, -ae = musice, -es = "art of music, music," also musica, -orum = "music," as well as the 1st/2nd declension adjective.
 

Gregorius

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

I stand corrected. Maybe I need something bigger than a desk dictionary.
 

Bitmap

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Gregorius dixit:
So to answer your question, Mattheus, I'd say "ars musica" for music as a general art form or subject of study and "melos" for the tune of a specific song. Somewhat humorously, this very issue is part of a debate about how to translate the title of the Latin Wikipedia article on Disney's "High School Musical." My personal translation is "Comoedia Musica Scholae."
It's true that musica started off as an adjective, but it had even been handled like a noun in Ancient Greek before it was borrowed into Latin (-> he mousice [scl. techne]).
 

Matthaeus

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

That is all very interesting, Gregorius, and I retract my doubts. So 'ars musica' would be the 'art of all things musical' then, correct? And about the Greek etymology of the word, Bitmap, isn't it related to the word musa, which I think is Greek (I am ignorant of Greek!), but also exists in Latin, hence our English muse. Do you follow what I'm getting at? I know that there were nine muses, and every one of them had patronage over a different type of art, and there were a couple who presided over music, is that right?
 

Bitmap

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

That's right. Μουσα / (Lat) musa means muse. They were the daughters of Zeus and the goddesses of different kinds of art (music in particular). μουσικος is the corresponding adjective meaning 'related to the muses' or simply 'musical'. Both τα μουσικα (ta mousika; neuter plural) and η μουσικη (he mousike, fem. sing.) mean 'music'. The latter one comes from η μουσικη τεχνη (he mousike techne - the musical art / the art of music), but seems to have become a noun of its own (or techne is just understood to be elliptic). η μουσικη is the one that made it into Latin (musica).
 

Matthaeus

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

Gratias, Bitmap, for the explanation. Sed nuper aliquid aliud mihi in mentem venit, how is word museum related to the Muses? I know for 100% that the etymology is Greek and derived from the same root.
 

Imber Ranae

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Re: I think its almost translated. Any help appreciated :)

mattheus dixit:
Gratias, Bitmap, for the explanation. Sed nuper aliquid aliud mihi in mentem venit, how is word museum related to the Muses? I know for 100% that the etymology is Greek and derived from the same root.
It's a transliteration of the Greek Μουσεῖον. This Wikipedia article explains pretty well the origin of the word and how it relates to the Muses.
 
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