Why are the Australians riding on kangaroos to work?

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Thanks for the discussion, @Callaina, those are interesting points... I think I see what you mean, but I'm not sure that interpretation is necessary there. No matter the "synonymes" used by JRR (if those were synonymes), I think that "rule" or "dominate" really means here (and the translators of Tolkien to foreign languages seem to agree on that) that he wants to HAVE them under their control. And "having them" that is still a state just like "ruling" is by default.

But yes, if there was clearly "subdue", I would agree... I mean, I think what is described here is how he holds the power and the ring bearers are in his thralldom (like the Ring Wraiths) - forever and do his biddings, are his eternal slaves: the dwarf lords, mortal men, the elven kings*. And that is a process...

*I know they didn't give in

I just think it takes some extra mental effort to "unthink" the process from "to rule" and reinterpret it unless it is somehow respecified in English. I also think that the default meaning for "rule" makes sense in regard to the story (although you made an interesting argument).

But thanks for the input, it's an interesting food for thought...
I suppose my interpretation is also guided by the fact that since every other verb in that couplet has aorist aspect, it only makes sense for the "rule" verb to have aorist aspect as well, since it's very strange to have one ongoing action preceding three completed actions. (It would be less weird if the three completed actions happened first and the couplet ended with one ongoing action.) I think this might be a case in which English is just less precise than Greek, and that this imprecision can actually be remedied by making use of Greek's greater precision of aspect.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Merriam-Webster is wrong
 

Godmy

A Monkey
I don't know, it's an interesting thought, I think definitely possible, but if I should say whether it's also more probable, I'd still stay that one has to really "push" there the less standard meaning of "rule" so it works, so I'd still say no. But I see what you mean. Nonetheless we agree at least when it comes to the aspects in general :)
 

Iáson

Cívis Illústris
assentiō tibi, Godmy. regere hīc certē est aliquid imperfectīvum, quod vult Sauron et incipere regere et in futūrō hoc facere, sine fīne. sōlum quod disputārī potest, ut mī vidētur, est invenīre: ego anteā intellēgī hoc esse, quod Sauron volēbat semper habēre potestātem inveniendī aliōs anulōs, etsī dāret dīversīs hominibus. sed nunc, tuā interpretātiōne perlēctā, mihi vidēris melius disseruisse dē illā rē: 'find them' est collocandum cum sequentibus verbīs 'bring them all and... bind them', quae est sine dubiō actiō simplex et perfectīva.

mihi multum placet invenīre exempla verbōrum quae nātūrā ('Aktionsart') imperfectīva/atelic debent esse, in quibus coercentur perfectīva esse... sed regendō nōn facile est. tamen exemplum verbī dignum inveniō apud librum Cantabrigiēnsem grammaticōrum graecōrum:
τῶν δ᾽ ἐμῶν προγόνων ἀκούω τὸν πρῶτον βασιλεύσαντα ἅμα τε βασιλέα καὶ ἐλεύθερον γενέσθαι. (Xen. Cyr. 7.2.4)
hīc, ut auctōrēs librī putant, aut potest aorista significāre 'incipere regere', aut tōtam actiōnem regendī hīc ut perfectam et simplicem intellegī.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
I don't know, it's an interesting thought, I think definitely possible, but if I should say whether it's also more probable, I'd still stay that one has to really "push" there the less standard meaning of "rule" so it works, so I'd still say no. But I see what you mean.
I was thinking about instances in the real world where we see this meaning of "rule". One example might be a football team chanting, "We're gonna rule!" They really don't mean "rule" in the sense of an ongoing action, like ruling a country; they mean winning the game or the tournament or the league or whatever, i.e. dominating.

Nonetheless we agree at least when it comes to the aspects in general :)
Yes, absolutely, and I think your original point was a very good one.
 

Godmy

A Monkey
Grātiās, Iáson, prō respōnsō, cogitātīs et exemplō aliquō illō Graecō....

... vērum dīcis Saurōnem semper invenīre velle, at, rēctē quoque dīcis dictum esse Saurōnem haec pauca ācta facere velle in ordine: invenīre, cōnferre, dēvincīre. Ūnō exceptō "regere": vult et initiō, et inter ācta sequentia et posteā.

^ bona tuī respōnsī mihi fuit lēctiō.


One example might be a football team chanting, "We're gonna rule!" They really don't mean "rule" in the sense of an ongoing action, like ruling a country; they mean winning the game or the tournament or the league or whatever, i.e. dominating.
Hm, now it is true that in my language the football teams do not shout anything semantically too equivalent (I mean literary) but when I'm trying to go through it: I don't think it's important that they don't want to become "rulers" (long term), but that they want to be in the state where they are superior, with the enemy team conquered and them BEING the conquerors (as in war) - that state can be one night, that can be the following days of celebrations and News interviews... I don't see this still as a problem when thought of imperfectively as the verb would be probably in default. I also don't see here a big semantic difference between to rule and dominate. For me personally, there's much bigger emphasis in "dominate" on the state of "being under domination" than "getting dominated from the state of not being dominated"... that's why I didn't consider that particular "synonyme" problematic at start, maybe it's my thing as a non-native though....

Yes, absolutely, and I think your original point was a very good one.
Yeah, thanks!
 
There have been plenty of times where the Greek tense simply makes no sense (to me) no matter how I try to reason it. But I also am certainly not an expert.
That's completely right. In my grammatic book it is written, that the Greek select the aspect arbitrarily, not according to our rules. Sometimes the Greek tense contradicts directly our rules.
 
*Γώζιλλα ὁ ὑπερμεγέθης δράκων ἅπαντα τὰ *πῡρηνικὰ ἐργαστήρια τὰ τῆς *Νιππωνίᾱς καταφαγὼν εἰς τὸν Νέον *Ἐβορακὸν παρεγένετο ὡς καὶ ταύτην τὴν πόλιν πυρὶ ἐκ τοῦ στόματος ἐκρέοντι καταπρήσων καὶ τὰ ἐρείπια καταπατήσων.


*Godzilla, dracō immānis, omnibus *Nippōniae officīnīs *nucleāribus dēvorātīs Novum Eborācum petīvit, ut hanc quoque urbem ignī, quem ex ōre ēvomeret, combūreret ruīnāsque conculcāret.

Godzilla in New York
 

Godmy

A Monkey
That's completely right. In my grammatic book it is written, that the Greek select the aspect arbitrarily, not according to our rules. Sometimes the Greek tense contradicts directly our rules.
It's quite a revealing information, on the other hand, while I don't want to claim that I'm any smarter than a Greek textbook - or for that matter, any of you, when it comes to Greek, I would be wary when a textbook says that some grammatical rule is truly applied at random. It may be that the rule is just too complicated for many scholars to grasp in its entirety (or they grasp it, but it's too difficult or impractical to explain to a beginner in a typical textbook) and that, maybe, if you approach it from the view of a native speaker of some [IE] language that uses the aspects and not in random then it may start making more sense... but then, I cannot testify to this, unfortunately (since my little knowledge of Greek). Just simply, as a linguist, I would be careful with assessing any natural language as having a grammatical rule that is applied arbitrarily... [at least in the spoken form].

Anyway, thanks for the input!
 
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ΑΘΗΝΑΖΕ

Δικαιόπολις Ἀθηναῖός ἐστιν· οἰκεῖ δὲ ὁ Δικαιόπολις οὐκ ἐν ταῖς Ἀθήναις, ἀλλὰ ἐν τοῖς ἀγροῖς· αὐτουργὸς γάρ ἐστιν. Γεωργεῖ οὖν τὸν κλῆρον καὶ πονεῖ ἐν τοῖς ἀγροῖς.


Δικαιόπολις ἐν τῇ Ἀττικῇ οἰκεῖ. Οὐ μὴν ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν, ἀλλ᾽ *ἐξώγειος ἐκ τῆς Ἀνδρομέδης τοῦ γαλαξίου ὤν. Μάλιστα δὲ τὸν κορωνὸν ἰὸν φοβούμενος τοὺς νοσοῦντας *φωτοβαλεῖ. Οἱ δὴ πλεῖστοι τῶν Ἀθηναίων ἤδη ἀπέθανον ὑπὸ τῶν ἀκτῑνοβολιῶν.
 
ΠΕΡΙ ΤΗΣ ΚΟΙΛΗΣ ΓΗΣ

Ἡ ἡμετέρᾱ γῆ κοίλη ἐστὶ καὶ *ἑρπετοειδῆ ζῷα *Νᾶγαι καλούμενα τὰ ὑπὸ γῆς οἰκεῖ.
Λέξις δ᾽ Ἰνδικὴ नाग [nāga] (m.) "ὄφις" σημαίνει.
Οὗτοι οὖν οἱ *νᾶγαι μεταμορφωθέντες εἰς ἀνθρώπων ἰδέᾱν ἄρχουσι πολλῶν πολῑτειῶν. Οἷον ἡ τῆς Γερμᾱνίᾱς ἀρχηγὸς *νᾶγά ἐστιν. Διὸ δὴ καὶ τοὺς ἅπαντας ἀνθρώπους βούλεται διαφθείρειν, ἵνα οἱ *νᾶγαι καταλιπόντες τὰ ὑπὸ γῆς οἰκῶσι τὰ ἐπὶ γῆς.

Naga
 
ΠΕΡΙ ΤΟΥ ΕΝ ΤΗΙ ΣΥΡΙΑΙ ΠΟΛΕΜΟΥ

Θωμᾶς *Ἀλώπεκος ὁ μέγιστος γελωτοποιὸς ἅπασι τοῖς βουλομένοις ἀναγιγνώσκειν τά τε σκωπτικὰ καὶ ἄλογα καὶ παράφρονα εὖ πράττειν.


Τόδε τὸ νεώτατόν ἐστι σκῶμμά μου· Ἐν τῇ Συρίᾳ οὐκ ἦν ἐμφύλιος πόλεμος, ἀλλ᾽ οἱ ταχεῖς σκώληκες κατὰ γῆς ταχέως ὑφέρποντες τὰς τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἰκίᾱς ὑπώρυξαν, ὥστε συμπεπτωκυῖαι κατὰ τῆς γῆς ἔδῡσαν.

Tremors
 
*Δαινερὺς *χειμωνογενὴς *Ταργαρύεσσα, τῷ πρώτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων καλουμένη,¹ ἡ ἄκαυστος, ἡ βασίλεια ἡ τῶν τ᾽ *Ἀνδαλῶν καὶ τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν, ἡ ἄρχουσα ἡ τῆς ποαζούσης² θαλάττης τῆς μεγάλης, ἡ τοὺς δεσμοὺς διαρρήξᾱσα, ἡ τῶν δρακόντων μήτηρ.


1) cf. Plu. Cat. Ma. 1.2 ἐκαλεῖτο δὲ τῷ τρίτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων πρότερον οὐ Κάτων, ἀλλὰ Πρῖσκος
2) Str.16.4.7 of the sea, "appear grassy with seaweed" .


Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen, First of Her Name, the Unburnt, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons.
 

Laurentius

Civis Illustris
Ὁ Κυριακός Γκρίζλι βάρη ἐν τῷ γυμνασίῳ αἱρεῖ καὶ κλάζει, ἔπειτα πρωτεῖον κυκεῶνα πίνει.


 
ΠΕΡΙ ΤΟΥ ΑΝΑΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΤΗΝ ΑΡΧΗΝ
Take Back the Throne

First of my name.
You've heard it across the ocean.
Breaker of chains.
Believe in the path I've chosen.


I've been through it all,
But now I am free.
And they used to doubt,
But now they're bending the knee.
So get ready for war
Or call me your queen.


I am the fire burning.
I am the one who brings the storm.
You know the tides are turning,
Cuz I'am coming home
To take back the throne.


I am the fierce wind churning.
I got the story set in stone.
You know the tides are turning,
Cuz I'am coming home
To take back the throne.


My enemies fall
With the might of a thousand cannons.
Yeah I'm standing tall
With the roar of a thousand dragons.


I was beaten and broken.
All out of chances.
Now it's my time
to rise from the ashes.


Τῷ πρώτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων καλοῦμαι¹.
Τάδε² δὴ³ ἠκούσατε διατεθαλασσευμένοι·
Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ⁴ τοὺς δεσμοὺς διαρρήξᾱσα
καὶ πιστεύω τῇ ὁδῷ, ἣν εἱλόμην.


Πάντα τε διελθοῦσα
νῦν ἐλευθέρᾱ εἰμί.
Οἱ δὲ πρὸ τοῦ εἰωθότες ἀμφισβητεῖν
νῦν τὰ γόνατα κάμπτουσιν.
Διὸ ἢ παρασκευάζου πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον
ἢ τὴν βασίλειάν με κάλει.


Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ αἰθόμενον πῦρ.
Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ χειμάζουσα.
Ἴστε οὖν τὰ πράγματα μεταβάλλοντα,
ἐπεὶ οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχομαι
τοῦ ἀπολαβεῖν⁵ τὴν ἀρχήν.


Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ζᾱὴς θύελλα χαλεπαίνουσα.
Ἥ τε ἐμὴ ἱστορίᾱ ἐγγέγλυπται ἐν λίθοις.
Ἴστε οὖν τὰ πράγματα μεταβάλλοντα,
ἐπεὶ οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχομαι
τοῦ ἀπολαβεῖν τὴν ἀρχήν.


Οἱ ἐμοὶ ἐχθροὶ πίπτουσι
τῇ δυνάμει τῇ χῑλίων βελοσφενδονῶν.
Ἐγὼ μέντοι⁶ ἀραμένη⁷ παντοίους κινδύνους περιγέγονα
μυκήμασι χῑλίων δρακόντων.


Πεπαταγμένη τε καὶ τὴν ψῡχὴν συγκεκλασμένη⁸
πάντων τῶν καιρῶν ἀπεστερήθην.
Νῦν δ᾽ ὥρᾱ ἔμοιγε
ἀναστῆναι ἐκ τῶν τεφρῶν.




1) cf. Plu. Cat. Ma. 1.2 ἐκαλεῖτο δὲ τῷ τρίτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων πρότερον οὐ Κάτων, ἀλλὰ Πρῖσκος
2) cf. Zinsm. § 96,2a; Menge § 74,4 Anm. 1
3) zur Hervorhebung einzelner Wörter, cf. Menge S VI 3.1
4) cf. BR § 242,2
5) cf. Lind. § 150b; BR § 236,3 Anm. 1; Menge § 164 Anm. 1
6) affirmativ, cf. Menge S III 5.2
7) Antiph. 5.63 κίνδῡνον δὲ τοσοῦτον ἀράμενος "nahm eine solche Gefahr auf mich"
8) Pl. R. 495e τὰς ψῡχὰς συγκεκλασμένοι τε καὶ ἀποτεθρυμμένοι διὰ τὰς βαναυσίᾱς, LSJ: "break in spirit, enervate"



 

Hemo Rusticus

Lounge Lizard
Ὁ Κυριακός Γκρίζλι βάρη ἐν τῷ γυμνασίῳ αἱρεῖ καὶ κλάζει, ἔπειτα πρωτεῖον κυκεῶνα πίνει.]
:vomit:
 
ΠΕΡΙ ΤΟΥ ΑΝΑΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΤΗΝ ΑΡΧΗΝ
Take Back the Throne

First of my name.
You've heard it across the ocean.
Breaker of chains.
Believe in the path I've chosen.


I've been through it all,
But now I am free.
And they used to doubt,
But now they're bending the knee.
So get ready for war
Or call me your queen.


I am the fire burning.
I am the one who brings the storm.
You know the tides are turning,
Cuz I'am coming home
To take back the throne.


I am the fierce wind churning.
I got the story set in stone.
You know the tides are turning,
Cuz I'am coming home
To take back the throne.


My enemies fall
With the might of a thousand cannons.
Yeah I'm standing tall
With the roar of a thousand dragons.


I was beaten and broken.
All out of chances.
Now it's my time
to rise from the ashes.


Τῷ πρώτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων καλοῦμαι¹.
Τάδε² δὴ³ ἠκούσατε διατεθαλασσευμένοι·
Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ⁴ τοὺς δεσμοὺς διαρρήξᾱσα
καὶ πιστεύω τῇ ὁδῷ, ἣν εἱλόμην.


Πάντα τε διελθοῦσα
νῦν ἐλευθέρᾱ εἰμί.
Οἱ δὲ πρὸ τοῦ εἰωθότες ἀμφισβητεῖν
νῦν τὰ γόνατα κάμπτουσιν.
Διὸ ἢ παρασκευάζου πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον
ἢ τὴν βασίλειάν με κάλει.


Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ αἰθόμενον πῦρ.
Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ χειμάζουσα.
Ἴστε οὖν τὰ πράγματα μεταβάλλοντα,
ἐπεὶ οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχομαι
τοῦ ἀπολαβεῖν⁵ τὴν ἀρχήν.


Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ζᾱὴς θύελλα χαλεπαίνουσα.
Ἥ τε ἐμὴ ἱστορίᾱ ἐγγέγλυπται ἐν λίθοις.
Ἴστε οὖν τὰ πράγματα μεταβάλλοντα,
ἐπεὶ οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχομαι
τοῦ ἀπολαβεῖν τὴν ἀρχήν.


Οἱ ἐμοὶ ἐχθροὶ πίπτουσι
τῇ δυνάμει τῇ χῑλίων βελοσφενδονῶν.
Ἐγὼ μέντοι⁶ ἀραμένη⁷ παντοίους κινδύνους περιγέγονα
μυκήμασι χῑλίων δρακόντων.


Πεπαταγμένη τε καὶ τὴν ψῡχὴν συγκεκλασμένη⁸
πάντων τῶν καιρῶν ἀπεστερήθην.
Νῦν δ᾽ ὥρᾱ ἔμοιγε
ἀναστῆναι ἐκ τῶν τεφρῶν.




1) cf. Plu. Cat. Ma. 1.2 ἐκαλεῖτο δὲ τῷ τρίτῳ τῶν ὀνομάτων πρότερον οὐ Κάτων, ἀλλὰ Πρῖσκος
2) cf. Zinsm. § 96,2a; Menge § 74,4 Anm. 1
3) zur Hervorhebung einzelner Wörter, cf. Menge S VI 3.1
4) cf. BR § 242,2
5) cf. Lind. § 150b; BR § 236,3 Anm. 1; Menge § 164 Anm. 1
6) affirmativ, cf. Menge S III 5.2
7) Antiph. 5.63 κίνδῡνον δὲ τοσοῦτον ἀράμενος "nahm eine solche Gefahr auf mich"
8) Pl. R. 495e τὰς ψῡχὰς συγκεκλασμένοι τε καὶ ἀποτεθρυμμένοι διὰ τὰς βαναυσίᾱς, LSJ: "break in spirit, enervate"



 
Ὁ ἡμέτερος *Δόναλδος προσποιεῖται¹ μὲν ἐκεῖνον² τὸν λοιμὸν κάμνειν³, τῇ δ᾽ ἀρχαιρεσίᾳ⁴ τῇ τοῦ ἄρχοντος ὡς ὑγιὴς τὸν νόσον γενόμενος καὶ τῷ δήμῳ προσελθὼν σκώψεται τοὺς οἰομένους τὸν λοιμὸν εἶναι.




1) cum inf., cf. Menge § 172,13
2) ἐκεῖνος weist auf Bekanntes oder Berühmtes hin, cf. Menge § 103,3
3) BR § 170,1 κάμνειν τήνδε τὴν νόσον; BR § 172,1 κάμνειν τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς od. τὴν κεφαλήν; Menge § 41,2 πάσᾱς νόσους κάμνειν
4) Der Dativ der Zeit steht ohne Präposition bei Substantiven, die durch ein Attribut genau bestimmt sind, cf. Menge § 72,2aβ
 
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