You have never lived, until you almost died

scrabulista

Consul
Staff member
Iynx, I'll have to check the library some time. I may be misremembering the Bond verse as better than what it was...

Play it again, Sam.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Hey ... me again ... Sorry to be a pain :)

Iynx dixit:
5. That leaves us with:

Vixisti numquam nisi paene mortuus es. Quendam saporem dat vita illis, qui eadem pugnant, quem tuti numquam noverint.
I'd stick with the pro you used in the sentence above, but I suppose you omitted that accidently here.
I'd also try to turn the first relative clause into a participle to make the sentence a bit shorter (although the sentence you mentioned is basically right): Quendam saporem dat vita pro eadem pugnantibus, quem tuti numquam noverint
or here's a slight variation in passive voice:
Quidam sapor pro vita pugnantibus datur quem tuti numquam noverint

Miles est, non diurnarius, qui nobis libertatem preli dedit. Miles est, non poeta, qui nobis libertatem orationis dedit. Miles est, non scholasticus qui in universitate ordinat, qui nobis libertatem manfestionis dedit. Miles est, qui vexillum salutat, qui sub vexillo servit, cuiusque arca vexillo tegitur, qui interpellatori vexillum concremandum permittit.
- Typo: Manifestationis
Apart from that, I think this sentence is right, but maybe you could make it a bit shorter by making the est elliptical after the first sentence. I'd also leave out the relative clause defining scholasticus because the word itself sounds clear enough to me and the parallelism would be underlined more clearly. I'd also retain the asyndeton of the English sentence and simply write cuius rather than cuiusque.

Miles est, non diurnarius, qui nobis libertatem preli dedit.
Miles, non poeta, qui nobis libertatem orationis dedit.
Miles, non scholasticus, qui nobis libertatem manifestationis dedit.
Miles, qui vexillum salutat,
qui sub vexillo servit,
cuius arca vexillo tegitur,
qui interpellatori vexillum concremandum permittit.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
One last afterthought:

I was taught to prefer verbal expressions to nouns where this is possible. I don't really know how to translate freedom of speech and freedom to demonstrate the best way, but maybe using a gerund here might be a good idea as well: libertatem dicendi / libertatem manifestandi ...?!

Any thoughts on this?
 

Iynx

Consularis
Not a pain to me, Bitmap; I'm learning, and that means I'm enjoying myself.

1. Arrgh. Now I left out the pro. You're right, of course, back in with it.

2. Going all the way back to the original post, we have "life has a flavor (for certain persons)". We have already stretched things by rendering this as "life gives a flavor (to certain persons)". It seems to me that the passive permutation, equivalent to "A certain flavor to the fighters for life is given" takes us still further from the original. So let's stay active, if you don't mind?

3. I have no objection in principal to the present-participial variant. But --forgive me-- I find your latest version somewhat confusing. I fear that one might (reading the thing de novo) attach the pro eadem mentally to the dare-- and think that something feminine was being given in exchage for the flavor.

4. So at this point we have two versions for the short quote-- both with advantages and disadvantages:

a Bitmap:

Vixisti numquam nisi paene mortuus es. Quidam sapor pro vita pugnantibus datur quem tuti numquam noverint.

a Iynge:

Vixisti numquam nisi paene mortuus es. Quendam saporem dat vita illis, qui pro eadem pugnant, quem tuti numquam noverint.


5. I like your gerund idea. Libertatem imprimendi, I suppose? I think Libertatem orandi might be be better than L. dicendi? But the manifestatio creates a problem. I was stretching that noun a good deal to cover the idea of a (political) demonstration, and I'm not at all sure that the verb-form will bear the strain. Perhaps libertatem civiliter manifestandi?

6. I think we need that clause defining the scholasticus, since we are not talking about an academic as such, but about a " campus organizer".

7. There is an "and" in the original post, before "whose coffin". So there is, I think, no asyndeton for us to imitate. But there is a repetitio, and more specifically an anaphora, to the adequate translation of which those est's seem to me essential.

8. I have considered trying forms of reclamo both for "demonstration" and (more strongly) for "protest"-- but I think the present words may be better.

So:

Miles est, non diurnarius, qui nobis libertatem imprimendi dedit. Miles est, non poeta, qui nobis libertatem orandi dedit. Miles est, non scholasticus qui in universitate ordinat, qui nobis libertatem civiliter manfestandi dedit. Miles est, qui vexillum salutat, qui sub vexillo servit, cuiusque arca vexillo tegitur, qui interpellatori vexillum concremandum permittit.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Iynx dixit:
2. ... So let's stay active, if you don't mind?
That's probably true. A correct sentence shouldn't be messed around with too much

5. I like your gerund idea. Libertatem imprimendi, I suppose? I think Libertatem orandi might be be better than L. dicendi?
No objections to orandi
The freedom of press caused me some trouble. While it's easy to substitute freedom to speak and to demonstrate for freedom of speech and demonstration, "freedom to print" sounds a bit weird to me [though it makes sense too]. That's why I wouldn't object to preli, although it seems to be a very rare word.

An alternative translation for press might be diurna (short for diurna acta populi Romani) which was the word that was used for public reports that were to some extend similar to our newspapers. [hence diunarius for journalist]

What about libertas diurnorum (which gets us rid of the verb problem in this case :p)?!

But the manifestatio creates a problem. I was stretching that noun a good deal to cover the idea of a (political) demonstration, and I'm not at all sure that the verb-form will bear the strain. Perhaps libertatem civiliter manifestandi? [/i]
I have checked a number of dictionaries and also vikipaedia to see if there is any translation for any kind of freedom mentioned here. Alas, in vain. It looks like all of this was simply part of the word libertas in the Roman republic (not requiring any specification). These particular forms of freedom were only invented and brought about later (by the soldier of course).

That's why I see no reason not to take a word from a modern Romance language, which I thought you had done, since manifestation and manifester are both modern French words for this concept of demonstration. Therefore, I don't think civiliter necessarily has to be in there since we need not explain this sentence to a Roman living 2000 years in the past. A simple word group like "freedom to demonstrate" should also receive a simple translation imo. If you want, leave it in though, it's certainly not wrong.

7. There is an "and" in the original post, before "whose coffin". So there is, I think, no asyndeton for us to imitate. But there is a repetitio, and more specifically an anaphora, to the adequate translation of which those est's seem to me essential.
Whoops, I missed the "and" ... you're right then

Well, since I've run out of further objections ...
Dixi.
Vale. :)
 
Hello All,

Thank you for your work on translating the passages. I just wanted to be clear and see what the "final" version you have agreed upon.

Regards,
JJ
 
Just to follow up--I took Bitmap's advice and suggested an English translation for his memorial; however, I've begun taking a Latin course and have wondered how I might fair at the translation (albeit, with all of your assistance)

My novice attempts:

You have never lived, until you have almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavour the protected shall never know.
Non vixisti, donec minime afuit quin mortuus sis. Eis qui vitae causa pugnant, vita talis est qualem defensi numquam experientur.


It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Miles, non rerum scriptor, nobis ius omnia in publicum edendi praestitit. Miles, non poeta, nobis ius omnia in publicum eloquendi praestitit. Miles, non scholarium concitator, nobis ius voluntatem in publicum declarandi praestitit. Miles est qui vexillum reveretur, qui vexillum sequitur, cuius capulus vexillo operitur, qui dissentienti permittit ut vexillum incendat.

Thoughts?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Re:

semperfidelis98_02 dixit:
donec minime afuit quin mortuus sis
I'm not entirely sure which tempus to use with donec here, but I'm inclined to think it should be future II. In any case, the construction you've chosen here is pretty complicated and the sentence looks a bit clumsy to me.

semperfidelis98_02 dixit:
defensus does not actually exist as an adjective and the PPP seems to get you into slight problems with the temporal relation. I really think tuti, as suggested above, is the best choice here.

The rest is fine although you lose the flavour metaphor.

semperfidelis98_02 dixit:
Miles, non rerum scriptor, nobis ius omnia in publicum edendi praestitit. Miles, non poeta, nobis ius omnia in publicum eloquendi praestitit. Miles, non scholarium concitator, nobis ius voluntatem in publicum declarandi praestitit. Miles est qui vexillum reveretur, qui vexillum sequitur, cuius capulus vexillo operitur, qui dissentienti permittit ut vexillum incendat.

Thoughts?
I don't see any grave error in there ... looks grammatically right to me. Maybe someone else will have an opinion here
 
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