"Live for the day"

[Nikolaos]

I'm new here, and I posted this in the Latin > English forum too.. Hope that's OK.

"Vive Pro Diem"... I want to translate "Live for the day", and I've seen a bunch of possibilities out there - "In Diem Vivere", "Vive Pro Hodie", "Vive Pro Die[s]" - but I like "Vive Pro Diem".. For one, I like the "Diem", ala "Carpe Diem".. And I speak fluent Spanish, so I definitely have a basic knowledge of Latin, if only by association lol.. So as someone who speaks Spanish, just looking at it you can see how it should theoretically translate.. And another thing, this is for a possible tattoo, and I want it to be original.. So even if this saying has never been seen before in Latin text, should it technically make sense? I mean, "diem" means "the day" right?

[Damoetas]

Hey 617ricky!

Don't worry, a few people on here may be cranky and irritable, but most of us are very nice I don't think that posting in two forums is likely to waste anyone's time.... On the other hand, it could make things confusing if some people reply in one forum and others in the other, and they miss what the other people have written. It's going to be the same people in both forms; they will probably just reply to whichever one they check first....

Anyway, I will be happy to answer your original question - after I finish my morning coffee! Perhaps others will answer in the meantime....

[Bitmap]

Apart from being grammatically incorrect in Latin, this wouldn't even make sense if you had got the cases right. In Latin, the word vivere itself often already has the implication of enjoying your life and making most of your time (confer Catullus's "Vivamus, mea Lesbia ..."); you can make it a bit clearer by adding an adverb - I would simply suggest
Vive bene

I don't know what's wrong with Horace's well-known dictum "carpe diem", though

[Bitmap]

"In Diem Vivere"

This collocation actually exists, but not with a positive connotation; it means "to live from hand to mouth"

[Matthaeus]

I don't think your original would make sense to an ancient Roman. "Live for the day" is some English idiom.

[Damoetas]

As Matthaeus pointed out in the other forum, all these "live for the day" or "live for today" expressions are very specific to modern English. That's often the case with short sayings that people want to get translated; they don't make sense in any language other than English (or whatever language they're from), because they're referring to specific conversations (or songs, or movies) that have been produced within that language. So in general, I'd say it's better to find a quote from an actual Roman author that expresses a similar idea; that way, it is more likely to be comprehensible and even elegant Latin.

It just so happens that the Romans did talk a lot about the shortness of life, and the importance of living in the present and enjoying each day. This was a large part of Stoic philosophy. (Although I'm probably oversimplifying.) I looked at the philosophical treatise by Seneca the Younger called De Brevitate Vitae, "On the Shortness of Life." You can see the whole thing in Latin here (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/sen.brevita.shtml) and in English translation here (http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/ ... rev_e.html). The most relevant section is Chapter 9, and he has one pithy quote that I think is just perfect for what you want:

protinus vive
"Live right away"

I.e. don't keep putting of your enjoyment, but live right now, in the present moment.

What do you think? Suggestions anyone?

[Cinefactus]

Finally managed to merge the two threads and clean them up...

Please don't double post.

[617ricky]

Apart from being grammatically incorrect in Latin, this wouldn't even make sense if you had got the cases right.

Can you elaborate on this at all? I understand my idea is an "english only" type saying, and that it was more than likely never before written in Latin.. But I'm OK with that, I mean no one speaks Latin anymore [natively].. The possibilities I've seen out there, I just don't like.. What I'm thinking here, is I want it to make sense, and thinking about it from a Spanish angle.. So, the imperative of to live, which I believe is "vive".. Then the word for, which I believe to be "pro".. Again from a Spanish angle (por, para), it seems to agree.. And then I want "the day".. I thought "diem" was the day, aka "Carpe Diem".. And again, I fully understand that a Roman 2000 yrs ago would not have said this, but is it really THAT bad? I like Carpe Diem, but it's so very widespread, so I thought instead of "Seize" the day, I'd rather "Live for" the day.. To someone who knows Spanish they'd be satisfied and would assume it made sense, I would think, but to you Latin pros - would this be that bad?? lol, and I'm still open to more suggestions, but I don't want any long words.. Thanks!

And sorry about the double-posting!

[Damoetas]

It's grammatically incorrect in several ways.... First, the endings of words change in Latin depending on how the word is used in a sentence. These endings are called cases; so, if it's the subject, it has to be in the nominative case; if it's the direct object, it's in the accusative case; different prepositions take different cases, and pro happens to take the ablative case. So the word for "day" has to be die and not diem. (In the carpe diem saying, diem is the direct object of the verb, so that's why it ends with -em.)

Perhaps more importantly, pro doesn't mean "for" in the way you want it to.... It can mean "for" as in the price of something, like "I bought it for three dollars." It can mean for like, "on behalf of," like "Fight for your country." When you say, "Live for the day," you don't mean "Live on behalf of the day, live to benefit the day." You mean, "Live with this day in mind, live with this day as the goal of your efforts." That's a different kind of "for," and you can't use pro for that in Latin. The thing I suggested before, protinus vive, is more the idea you want.

This doesn't really address your larger question: if you get a tattoo that's bad Latin, "is it really THAT bad?" Well, of course it's up to you. You can get a tattoo that says anything you want. But if you really want it to sound like Spanish, I don't see why you don't just get it in Spanish: Vive por el día (or para, whichever is right) sounds pretty good to me. If you just want Latin because it looks cool... well, again, it's up to you! If it were me, I would want it to be correct Latin

[Damoetas]

PS. Just to be extra sure, I did a quick search on Perseus, which contains most of ancient Latin literature. The phrase pro die occurs only twice, and both of those times in means "instead of day." (That's another shade of meaning that pro can have in Latin.) For instance, Cicero In Pisonem 53: nonne tibi nox fuit pro die? "Did you not [make use of] night instead of day?" or "Didn't night take the place of day for you?" So that's why vive pro die really does not make sense.

[617ricky]

OK I appreciate the input... But how would you personally do a literal word for word translation of "Live for the day" in Latin that's grammatically correct? 'Live' has to be Vive, but how do you say "for the day?"

I'm considering the "protinus vive" too, I'm still nowhere close to going to get a tattoo, just still looking at everything..

[Chamaeleo]

Your question shows that you don’t understand what translation is.

[Bitmap]

And again, I fully understand that a Roman 2000 yrs ago would not have said this, but is it really THAT bad?

Yes; if you don't care, don't get a Latin tattoo

[Damoetas]

OK I appreciate the input... But how would you personally do a literal word for word translation of "Live for the day" in Latin that's grammatically correct? 'Live' has to be Vive, but how do you say "for the day?"

Yeah, I see what you're asking.... But the point is that there is no way to do a literal, word for word translation of those words into Latin, and have it make sense, or mean anything close to what it means in English. The closest might be what Bitmap mentioned above, vive in diem, but this also means something quite different: it's talking about material (i.e monetary) resources, and it's saying, "Live each day on the money that you take in that day," i.e. "live hand to mouth, with no ability to save anything." This is not at all what you want to say.

See, it's not that the Romans never thought about the idea of living for today. They DID think about it and talk about it A LOT. But they expressed it in completely different words. If you told a Roman, Vive pro die, he'd be like, "Huh?" And then you could explain, "In English that means, Vive cuiusque diei voluptates prospiciens, live looking out for the pleasures of each day, or Cuiusque diei voluptatibus fruere, enjoy the pleasures of each day." And then he'd say, "Oooh, I get it. You mean like Seneca said, Protinus vive, or like Horace's famous line, Carpe diem, or that other line of Horace: Omnem crede diem tibi diluxisse supremum, Live as if each day that dawns is your last."

(By the way that longer line of Horace is pretty good, although perhaps you want something shorter.)

Anyway, does that kind of make sense?

[Iohannes Aurum]

By Occam's razor, I prefer carpe diem, since it sums up the meaning of "Live for today" rather well, using the words of Horace. Another thing, carpe diem is popular, since this phrase is used often in the film Dead Poets Society.

[617ricky]

Your question shows that you don’t understand what translation is.

not true. as I said I speak Spanish, and I realize there's 1000's of sayings in English that you CAN'T translate literally to Spanish and vice-versa - cuz they would sound silly and not make sense.. So I FULLY understand the issue here.. I guess I'm trying to use the fact that it's technically a dead language, to translate something literally and not care that it doesn't "make sense".. But I'm beginning to slowly come around, I just originally wanted "Diem" in there, cuz I was sure that it meant "the day"..

And the reason I want this in Latin is because when I learned Spanish, it was my favorite thing and probably the funnest thing I ever learned, and when I found out that Latin was the grandfather of all the romance languages, I was very intrigued.. I think it's amazing how all these Roman soldiers 2000 yrs ago brought their "Vulgar Latin" to all these corners of Europe, and now we have a bunch of different, distinct languages that have blossomed..

[617ricky]

Anyway, does that kind of make sense?

Yea it does, thanks.. And I'm liking "protinus vive" more now after reading more.. It's basically like "live for the day, every single day"... e.g. live now, forward, and constantly..

[Imber Ranae]

Vive in praesens might work, but I've not seen such an idiom used anywhere in Latin literature.

Horace has: Laetus in praesens animus quod ultra est oderit curare et amara lento temperet risu. Nihil est ab omni parte beatum. (Carminum liber II, 16)

"Let the mind, joyful in the moment, disdain to trouble about what happens beyond that, and let it temper bitterness with an easy laugh. Nothing can be favorable in every respect."

[617ricky]

Yea, I saw "Vive in praesens/momentum" out there too.. But from what I understand "Protinus vive" is a suitable alternative, and also has the meaning of "continuously, constantly, forward", in addition to "immediately, now".. So I'd have to lean towards that one.. This may be a stupid question to you guys, but does "Vive protinus" make sense, or should it definitely be "Protinus vive" ? THanks everyone.

[Matthaeus]

Word order is free in Latin, so do as you please.