1. The forum will be taken offline for scheduled maintenance this weekend. This will take place around:

    Tokyo (UTC+9): November 23 9:00AM
    New Delhi (UTC+5:30): November 23 5:30AM
    Rome (UTC+1): November 23 1:00AM
    EST (UTC-5): November 22 7:00PM
    PST (UTC-8): November 22 4:00PM

    Downtime should not last more than 48 hours. If the maintenance can not be completed in that time frame, further downtime will be scheduled for a later date.

Klingner commentary on Boethius

By Callaina, in 'Reading Latin', Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    I'm currently reading Klingner's 1928 commentary on Boethius, itself written in (often rather dense -- he appears to have been showing off) Latin. I'm having some trouble figuring out how this sentence coheres:

    Iam igitur quaeritur quinam ille ordo sit; qui quo facilius cognoscatur, ea quae copiose in eo libro [i.e. Book III of the Consolatio] disputantur, quam paucissimis verbis adumbrare et velut e quadam specula uno obtutu comprehendere in animo est.

    What exactly is quo doing? If it had been ut, the whole thing would make sense:

    "Now, therefore, one asks what that order is; so that which might be more easily known, it is in my mind to sketch, in as few words as possible, those things which are copiously discussed in this book, and to grasp them, as though in a single glance from some high place."
  2. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Quo here means basically the same as ut. "By which it may be more easily known" = "so that (by doing what I'm about to do) it may be more easily known".
  3. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    Hmm, ok. I suppose one sees a similar usage in English formal writing at times. Thanks.
  4. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    You will find quo (in the meaning of ut eo) very often with comparatives.
    Callaina likes this.
  5. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    Here's another little thing; I don't have any trouble understanding this, but it seems to me that it would be more common to use an infinitive than a subjunctive here:

    Unde igitur error, cum homines bona haud dubie petant, bonis petendis a bonis declinent?

    "Whence therefore the error, that -- though human beings undoubtedly seek good things -- they go astray from good things by seeking good things?"

    Wouldn't bonis petendis a bonis declinare be more standard in elaborating the content of the error? Or am I missing something?
  6. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    I would have taken it as an ut explicativum ... with the ut missing ...
    Actually, an infinitive construction would sound weird to me here.
  7. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    Well, that's what I first wanted as well, actually, but there was no ut...
  8. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    Well, it's not that unusual for ut or ne to go missing, is it? It usually happens after a set of set expressions, but it wouldn't really bother me here, somehow.

    Not sure if Sarah has a different explanation ... I also wonder what she thinks about an AcI here because, as I said, it would seem a bit unusual to me in that connection.
  9. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada

    LOL...I don't know, but this struck me as humorous somehow (like they're such tiny words that they just wander off the page of their own accord). :D
  10. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    It seems a bit unusual here, but I don't know.

    It occurred to me that declinent might still depend on cum, but it doesn't seem to make for as natural an interpretation as if you take declinent to be a coniunctivum explicativum omisso ut, lol.
    It would seem weird to me too.
    Callaina and Bitmap like this.
  11. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    Here's another little thing I'm wondering about:

    Verba enim ipsa Boethii exemplum Platonis animo eius obversatum esse declarant. An quisquam, si ea recte perpenderit, ubi Philosophia occupato ad imagines visu animum ipsam illam felicitatem non posse intueri praemonet, notam illius non adgnoscit?
    (The italics are in the Klingner original; they are quoted material from Boethius.)

    I don't understand why perpenderit is in the subjunctive (or, alternatively, future perfect), since adgnoscit is just in present indicative and the whole thing looks like a general logical condition.
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    That use isn't very classical, but commonplace in later Latin. I think it's perfect subjunctive, but it's hard to be sure since so many of the forms are identical. Some ancient/medieval grammarians didn't even realize they were different things, so the question as to which one it is may not even be relevant when it comes to analysing it in the writings of that period. This text is much later, though, right? So it's likely the author saw them as different forms.
    Bitmap likes this.
  13. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada

    Interesting. Klingner wrote the commentary in the 1920's, when even among classicists it was becoming rather rare to write one's scholarly work in Latin. My feeling is that he did it either out of pure love for the classical scholarly tradition (which he felt was dying in his day, perhaps), or to show off his Latin skills. Either way it's odd for him to include a non-classical usage.
  14. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena

    Lol ... it's from 1928 ;)

    I also thought adgnoscet was cleaner ...
  15. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    I don't know ... that may be true for scholarly works in general, but a commentary on a Latin work in the field of classical philology? Doesn't come across as unusual to me for that time ...


    I'd say back in those days, writing it in Latin gave you the best chances of having your work acknowledged wordwide ... it's today's equivalent of writing an English commentary on the English translation of the piece :p

    I'd have to check with Kühner-Stegmann if examples of such mixed conditional clauses can be found in classical times ... maybe he had something in mind there ... or maybe he just committed to that irregularity having read too many late texts :p After all, there's nothing that would force him to stick to Ciceronian style.
  16. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada

    In the 1920's, though? I've read a lot of secondary literature on Boethius, and very little of it has been in Latin. There's the Klingner commentary and then one article by Galdi entitled De Boethii carminibus quid iudicandum sit. My impression is that this was very common in the 1700's and the 1800's (perhaps a bit less so towards the end of the century) but that by the 1920's it was dying out a bit. Of course, someone like Klingner may have hoped for a resurgence, or perhaps he wanted, as you say, his work to be accessible to all trained classicists regardless of their native tongue... (Of course, the level of Latin even among Classicists today has dropped to the point where a lot of them probably find a Latin commentary rather a chore to wade through, making it actually less accessible. Sigh.)
  17. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena

    Well, what language would you write it in? I don't think that in the 1920s English already had the acknowledgement in world-wide science that it has these days ... so I think his options were essentially German (for a German-speaking audience) or Latin ...
  18. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    Well, he was German after all... :p
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Would French have been an option? Wasn't it a kind of a lingua franca at that time?
  20. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    It was the language of diplomats ... but I have no idea about its significance in science ...

Share This Page

 

Our Latin forum is a community for discussion of all topics relating to Latin language, ancient and medieval world.

Latin Boards on this Forum:

English to Latin, Latin to English translation, general Latin language, Latin grammar, Latine loquere, ancient and medieval world links.