aut consilis aut ense?

Tanuki

New Member
Hi, I'm new here, don't know if this should be here...
The thing is, our national motto ("either by way of reason or by force") is supposed to derive from the latin phrase "aut consilis aut ense", meaning "either by counsil/advice or by sword", found in our first national emblem (I'm from Chile) ...I'm just starting to struggle with latin, but it seems wrong to me, and doing research about the history behind it so far I've found this variations:
aut concilis aut ense
aut consillis aut ense
aut consilium aut ense
The thing is there is no depiction of that emblem (this was 1812) and the only account is from a spanish friar, who actually wrote it like "at the top read 'post tenebras lux' and at the bottom 'aut concilliés aut ense' " ??????

Which should be the correct writing? and shouldn't it be "ensis" for sword, instead of "ense"

Please thanks in advance...this is giving me a headache and is bad for my OCD :)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Hello,

The right spelling is aut consiliis aut ense. Consilis, with one "i" as you have it in the thread title, can also be a varitant spelling, but the most "standard" one is consiliis.

You do need the form ense, the ablative, to express means "with/by (means of) sword" and not the nominative or genitive ensis, which would be if the sword were the subject if it were nominative - as in "the sword is doing something" - or expressing possession if genitive - "of the sword".
 

Tanuki

New Member
yes, in that site there's a representation of the emblem based on descriptions, since there's no real depiction of it.
And in the image it reads "aut consilio aut ense", but in the text it is writen "aut consilliis au tense".
I've seen it writen in many ways, therefore my confusion.

thanks for your help



Hello,

The right spelling is aut consiliis aut ense. Consilis, with one "i" as you have it in the thread title, can also be a varitant spelling, but the most "standard" one is consiliis.

You do need the form ense, the ablative, to express means "with/by (means of) sword" and not the nominative or genitive ensis, which would be if the sword were the subject if it were nominative - as in "the sword is doing something" - or expressing possession if genitive - "of the sword".


wow thanks, that was fast :)
The explanation on the ablative was really helpful. Thak you so much
I love the forum already
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Aut consiliis au tense is a typo. In the image they are using the singular consilio rather than the plural consiliis.
 

Tanuki

New Member
Aut consiliis au tense is a typo. In the image they are using the singular consilio rather than the plural consiliis.
So I gather that consilio is the ablative singular for consilium?
And in this case either aut consilio or aut consiliis could be used and would be gramatically correct?

And ensis in all its forms (sing and plr nom, gen and acc) would be ensis, and it would change only in the ablative to ense? Sorry I ask so much, but is ensis an uncommon word? everybody I've asked uses gladius
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
So I gather that consilio is the ablative singular for consilium?
And in this case either aut consilio or aut consiliis could be used and would be gramatically correct?
Yes.
And ensis in all its forms (sing and plr nom, gen and acc) would be ensis, and it would change only in the ablative to ense?
No.

Singular:

Nominative/vocative: ensis
Accusative: ensem
Genitive: ensis
Dative: ensi
Ablative: ense

Plural:

Nominative/vocative/accusative: enses
Genitive: ensium
Dative/ablative: ensibus
Sorry I ask so much, but is ensis an uncommon word? everybody I've asked uses gladius
It is not extremely rare, but it's less common than gladius. I think it is mainly found in poetry. And you're not asking too much.
 

Tanuki

New Member
Yes.
No.

Singular:

Nominative/vocative: ensis
Accusative: ensem
Genitive: ensis
Dative: ensi
Ablative: ense

Plural:

Nominative/vocative/accusative: enses
Genitive: ensium
Dative/ablative: ensibus
It is not extremely rare, but it's less common than gladius. I think it is mainly found in poetry. And you're not asking too much.

Clear as water.
Thanks again
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
You're welcome.
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
I rather prefer the singular consilio, since that can mean "wisdom/sound judgement" as opposed to just "plans/deliberation".
 
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