German Boethius commentary

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Another little question: I don't understand what the subjunctives in this sentence are doing. (I will give the context in case that matters. It's discussing IIIm9 again.)

Wenn Plato Tim. 27c beim Übergang zum eigentlichen Thema ein Gebet fordert, so ist es nun fast witzig, dass bei Boethius der Inhalt des Gebetes aus dem neuplatonisch interpretierten Timaeus genommen wird. In dem Gedicht sei nicht nur die Zweigliederung nach Entstehen (= Vorschreiten V. 1/20) und Vollendung (= Rückkehr) 20 bis Ende hervorgehoben, sondern es seien auch einige neuplatonische Züge bei der Timaeus-Interpretation genannt.

While we're at it, I'm not sure quite what Züge means here, either.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Translate it like a jussive subjunctive in Latin.
Züge = traces / traits / characteristic qualities

In the poem, let not only the division in two parts be highlighted, i.e. into emerging (= proceeding) and fullfilment (= return);
let also some Neoplatonic traces (or traits) be named in the interpretation of Timaeus.

Another way of putting it
In the poem, we should not only remark the division (...), but also the Neoplatonic characteristics (...)
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Oh, I see -- so he's essentially outlining his method for the line-by-line commentary that follows. Thanks!
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Another bit from the same commentary (still on IIIm9). I'm having trouble making sense of all these stacked prepositions, particularly an, and my dictionary doesn't contain Selbigen (is it something like "being oneself"?

Aus Tim. 42d geht hervor, dass bei Boethius zunächst an die Befreiung aus dem Kreis der Geburten nach der Bewährung in der ersten Einkörperung gedacht ist an die Rückkehr zum zugehörigen Gestirn, und an die Erreichung des glückseligen Lebens, wie es Proklos in Tim. III 302, 16 pathetischer ausdrückt: einzige Rettung der Seele, beendigend den Kreis des Kirrens im Werden, ist das Leben, das zum Umschwung des Selbigen und Gleichen (Plato Tim 36d I) hinaufführt.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
There should be a comma behind ist.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Another bit from the same commentary (still on IIIm9). I'm having trouble making sense of all these stacked prepositions, particularly an, and my dictionary doesn't contain Selbigen (is it something like "being oneself"?

Aus Tim. 42d geht hervor, dass bei Boethius zunächst an die Befreiung aus dem Kreis der Geburten nach der Bewährung in der ersten Einkörperung gedacht ist an die Rückkehr zum zugehörigen Gestirn, und an die Erreichung des glückseligen Lebens, wie es Proklos in Tim. III 302, 16 pathetischer ausdrückt: einzige Rettung der Seele, beendigend den Kreis des Kirrens im Werden, ist das Leben, das zum Umschwung des Selbigen und Gleichen (Plato Tim 36d I) hinaufführt.

It can be deduced from Tim. 42d that in Boethius, one thinks, at first, of the liberation from the circle of births after the probation of the first incarnation [this sounds like soul migration and like breaking free from the circle after having gone through your first incarnation well enough], <one thinks> of the return to the respective star, and <one thinks> of achieving the vita beata; as Proklos puts it more pompeously in Tim. III 302,16: the only salvation for the soul, finishing the circle of going crazy* in becoming, is such a life as leads up to the change of the same and the same** (Plato Tim 36d I).

* This is my interpretation of "Kirren". I don't know any German noun or verb called "Kirren". However, I expect it to be derived from the (colloquial) adjective "kirre". "Ich werde kirre" = I'm getting crazy (or angry).

** Sorry, I would have to look up the Plato reference in Ancient Greek here to understand what the German is actually supposed to mean. Normally, "des Selbigen" would refer back to life ("a change of 'said' life"), while "Gleichen" would mean "the same things" and couldn't refer to "Leben".
Ah, fuck, I'll try to find the Greek.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
The circle of going crazy in becoming, lol. Interesting.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
Oops, sorry. Irrens, not Kirrens. Typo. :(
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
I think I prefer the Kirrens interpretation, lol, though. :D
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima
that in Boethius, one thinks
Is this just a pompously formal way of saying "Boethius thinks..." or does he mean something more like "I/any reasonably educated Classicist thinks, when reading Boethius..."?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Oops, sorry. Irrens, not Kirrens. Typo. :(

Then it's the "Erring of Becoming" ('Erring' probably less in the sense of making a mistake, but in the sense of wandering around aimlessly ... well, essentially, 'to err' and 'irren' have the same range of meaning in English and in German.)

Is this just a pompously formal way of saying "Boethius thinks..." or does he mean something more like "I/any reasonably educated Classicist thinks, when reading Boethius..."?

The formulation leaves that question open, actually, and it could mean both. I kind of think that both is meant at the same time.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I don't think the English "err" has retained the "wander" meaning of erro to this day. Or if it has, it must be pretty rare.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Ah, fuck, I'll try to find the Greek.

ταὐτοῦ καὶ ὁμοίου περιφορᾷ

"the revolution ('circular movement') of the same and of the similar."

The German translation given in the commentary is flawed.

It should not be "Des Selbigen". It should be "Umschwung desselben und des Gleichen". Actually, "Umschwung" is not an optimal choice, either ... Umschwung means "change", but periphora is more something like "Umlauf", i.e. circulation.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I don't think the English "err" has retained the "wander" meaning of erro to this day. Or if it has, it must be pretty rare.

You are right. Wiktionary gives:

Verb
err (third-person singular simple present errs, present participle erring, simple past and past participle erred)

(intransitive) To make a mistake.
He erred in his calculations, and made many mistakes.
(intransitive) To sin.
(archaic) to stray.

... I only knew the word from some older poems or pieces of literature, I guess.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Btw. German (theoretically) makes a difference between "derselbe" (the same) and "der Gleiche" ('the same' in English ...)
Ancient Greek seems to do the same.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I cannot be wroth with thee for an archaism.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Btw. German (theoretically) makes a difference between "derselbe" (the same) and "der Gleiche" ('the same' in English ...)
Ancient Greek seems to do the same.
:crazy:

Pardon?
 
Top