Gospel Acclamation Question (Again!)

Pelayo

New Member

For the 5th Sunday of Easter, we have:

Manete in me, et ego in vobis, dicit Dominus; qui manet in me fert fructum multum.

This is simple enough: Remain in me, and I in you, says the Lord; whoever remains in me bears much fruit.

However, the Missal has: Remain in me as I remain in you, says the Lord; Whoever remains in me will bear much fruit.

Like my last question, why the future here for fert? This is the 3rd person present indicative. Is this artistic license? Or is there something connecting these I'm not grasping?

I understand the translation of "as I remain in you." I get that it is "remain" is implied here.
 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

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Is this a mix of John 15,4 and John 15,5?

As for the interesting issue you raised, I think it has to do with English grammar. All the three versions of the Gospels I have with me (in Italian) use the present tense.

CEI (Italian Bishops Council):
Restate in me, ed io resterò in voi,... Colui che rimane in me ... porta abbondanti frutti
Padre Angelico Poppi:
Rimanete in me, e io in voi ... Chi rimane in me ...porta molto frutto
Presbitero Fulvio Nardoni:
Rimanete in me, ed io in voi... Chi rimane in me ... porta molto frutto
 

Pelayo

New Member

The Vulgate for John 15:4 has:

manete in me et ego in vobis sicut palmes non potest ferre fructum a semet ipso nisi manserit in vite sic nec vos nisi in me manseritis

So clearly this is a paraphrase. We see sicut in the Vulgate, but not in the missal. Also uses potest ferre, which more closely matches fert. And manserit/manseritis in the Vulgate, perhaps matches better with their English translation.

It is almost like they paraphrased the Latin and then independently paraphrased the English.
 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

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They did this, I think:

Manete in me, et ego in vobis. Sicut palmes non potest ferre fructum a semetipso, nisi manserit in vite, sic nec vos, nisi in me manseritis. 5 Ego sum vitis, vos palmites : qui manet in me, et ego in eo, hic fert fructum multum, quia sine me nihil potestis facere.

In addition to this, they added a "dicit Dominus"= "says the Lord"
 
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Pelayo

New Member

They did this, I think:

Manete in me, et ego in vobis. Sicut palmes non potest ferre fructum a semetipso, nisi manserit in vite, sic nec vos, nisi in me manseritis. 5 Ego sum vitis, vos palmites : qui manet in me, et ego in eo, hic fert fructum multum, quia sine me nihil potestis facere.

In addition to this, they added a "dicit Dominus", says the Lord
Good call. I didn't look at verse 5.
 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

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The idea of "remaining" is a recurrent theme. in my head I link "manete in me" (Lord---> disciples) with "mane nobiscum, Domine, quoniam advesperascit et inclinata est iam dies"- "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over" (disciples--> Lord) in a completely different frame: Luke 24,29. There's also a beautiful chant for processions inspired to that last line.

As for the use of "will" there I definitely think it's an "artistic licence" I can't see any grammatical reason.
 

Notascooby

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Not sure of the exact reason but in English the present can be used in a future sense like the phrase " couples who train together stay together". This is given in the present tense but is used in a statement given as a (supposedly) solid and unchanging fact. If we used the future tense in this it wouldn't really change the meaning except maybe making it more emphatic. I think the Latin is playing the same game here.
 

Callaina

Feles Curiosissima

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For what it's worth, John 15:5 in the original Greek uses the present tense there: ὁ μένων ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ οὗτος φέρει (="fert") καρπὸν πολύν, ὅτι χωρὶς ἐμοῦ οὐ δύνασθε ποιεῖν οὐδέν.
 

Pelayo

New Member

Which version of the missal are we talking about here?
The MTF based on "the Order of Mass from Missale Romanum, Editio typica tertia, (C) 2008, 2002, Typis Polyglottis Vaticanis"

 
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