Help translating prayers...

CarloScalisi

New Member
Might I ask why you want to pray in Latin? It seems like an incredibly perverse exercise.

I choose to pray in a language other than my native, day-to-day language, precisely to set prayer apart from my day-to-day activities. Latin, although not the only language in which I pray, serves this purpose for me due to its prominent role in the Catholic Church.

Yes, it would change the translation. But isn't the sign of the cross usually accompanied by "in the name of the Father..."?

Salve Pacis Puella,

Honestly, I'm not really sure to whom "mantle" refers in that prayer. It's ambiguous in the original language. However, the way it's read, it seems like the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at the end is set apart from the actual prayer, as if it's simply supposed to be the Sign of the Cross in closing. I'm not sure why "In the name of..." was omitted, but perhaps for euphony or rhythm.

So, how would that part of the prayer be translated, in this case?

Thank you very much!!
 

CarloScalisi

New Member
Yes, it would change the translation. But isn't the sign of the cross usually accompanied by "in the name of the Father..."?
The next part of my prayer booklet is the Rosary, and I've decided to use a so-called Scriptural Rosary to help focus on the meaning behind the repetitive prayers. Each decade, of course, focuses on a particular subject, and in the booklet at the head of each decade is a synopsis of that subject. I am on the first mysteries, the Joyous, and I was hoping that you would be able to review the synopses that I've translated and help where I've been stuck.

1 Annuntiatio (Annunciation)
Archángelus Gabrihel Maríae annuntiat concipiet filium Dei.
The Archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will conceive the Son of God.

2 Visitatio (Visitation)
María visit cognatam suam Elisabéth, quam praegnatem est Ioanne Baptista.
Mary visits her cousin Elisabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist.

3 Natívitas (Nativity)
Iesus natus est in praesepio circa Bethleem.
Jesus is born in a manger outside of Bethlehem.

4 Presentatio Jesu (Presentation of Jesus)
Ioseph et María Iesum in templo Hierosolymorum praesentaverunt ubi... ???
Joseph and Mary presented Jesus in the Temple of Jerusalem where they meet Simeon.

5 Inventio Jesu (Finding Jesus)
???
After losing him, Mary and Joseph find young Jesus teaching the Rabbis in the Temple.


Thank you!!
 

Nooj

Civis Illustris
1 Annuntiatio (Annunciation)
Archángelus Gabrihel Maríae annuntiat concipiet filium Dei.
The Archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will conceive the Son of God.
Ideally, there should be a marker of subordinancy here [quod] concipiet or an accusative infinitive construction 'eam filium dei concepturam [esse]'.

Or you could change concipiet into concipies and so make it into a quote. In which case the archangel gabriel tells mary 'you will conceive etc'.


2 Visitatio (Visitation)
María visit cognatam suam Elisabéth, quam praegnatem est Ioanne Baptista.
Mary visits her cousin Elisabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist.
the rest of the sentence doesn't make sense. it must be quae praegnata est.

this is assuming you don't want to delve into relative attraction.


3 Natívitas (Nativity)
Iesus natus est in praesepio circa Bethleem.
Jesus is born in a manger outside of Bethlehem.

circa is around, in the surroundings of...

outside of would be extra.


4 Presentatio Jesu (Presentation of Jesus)
Ioseph et María Iesum in templo Hierosolymorum praesentaverunt ubi... ???
Joseph and Mary presented Jesus in the Temple of Jerusalem where they meet Simeon.
ubi (better quo) Simoni obvii fuerunt...

obvius alicui esse - to meet

or you could use occurro.

5 Inventio Jesu (Finding Jesus)
???
After losing him, Mary and Joseph find young Jesus teaching the Rabbis in the Temple.


Thank you!!
A variety of ways one could translate this.

Reperiunt Iesum amissum puerum iam apud templum docentem magistros/rabbinos
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Honestly, I'm not really sure to whom "mantle" refers in that prayer. It's ambiguous in the original language. However, the way it's read, it seems like the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at the end is set apart from the actual prayer, as if it's simply supposed to be the Sign of the Cross in closing. I'm not sure why "In the name of..." was omitted, but perhaps for euphony or rhythm.

So, how would that part of the prayer be translated, in this case?
If "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" are just "named" absolutely like that and are not the owners of the mantle, then just put them in the nominative (and I'll also change the pronoun for "their"):

... iamque illorum pallio me tego. Pater et Filius et Spiritus Sanctus.
Ideally, there should be a marker of subordinancy here [quod] concipiet or an accusative infinitive construction 'eam filium dei concepturam [esse]'.
"Ideally" is an euphemism. :)
this is assuming you don't want to delve into relative attraction.
I don't think that kind of attraction is very likely. I've never seen any similar one so far in any case.
ubi (better quo) Simoni obvii fuerunt...
No, you do need ubi and not quo. They were in that place and met him there, it's "the place in which", not "to which".
Reperiunt Iesum amissum puerum iam apud templum docentem magistros
A detail: I would put amissum before Iesum because now it looks more like "Jesus the lost child" or "Jesus lost when he was a child" and I think the order I suggest expresses better the idea "the child Jesus having been lost (= who had been lost/after he was lost)".

Also, nothing corresponds to iam in the English version so I don't really know why you added it.
 

Nooj

Civis Illustris
"Ideally" is an euphemism. :)
we can give a finger to latin grammar and use english punctuation:

archangelus gabriel mariae annuntiat: concipet filium dei

lol! no but seriously for a change i do wonder, since you read medieval manuscripts, have you ever seen anything like this pacis puella?

I don't think that kind of attraction is very likely. I've never seen any similar one so far in any case.
but if the poster was aiming for a relative attraction in his composition, then there are still things to be done with that sentence to accomodate him...

No, you do need ubi and not quo. They were in that place and met him there, it's "the place in which", not "to which".
you're right, ubi is what you want.

that's my englishness coming through there, not latin. to be in the way of someone, which is the literal meaning of obvius esse, is not to say that one goes to encounter someone, which would be better expressed by ones of movement (occurro).

whereas 'where do i meet you' in english can express just as much 'where do i go to meet you' as 'in what place do i meet you'.

but then, this is still salvageable if one puts 'in quo', referring to to the templum.

A detail: I would put amissum before Iesum because now it looks more like "Jesus the lost child" or "Jesus lost when he was a child" and I think the order I suggest expresses better the idea "the child Jesus having been lost (= who had been lost/after he was lost)".
sounds good to me.

Also, nothing corresponds to iam in the English version so I don't really know why you added it.
iam can mean at last as well, no? see PHASALITY, POLARITY, FOCALITY: A FEATURE
ANALYSIS OF THE LATIN PARTICLE IAM Caroline Kroon and Rodie Risselada.


in (6) iam seems to
indicate that a state of affairs takes place, not earlier, but later than expected
(‘only then’), for which Latin normally uses the phasal particle demum.

(6) de quibus iam dicendi locus erit cum de senioribus pauca dixero
(‘of whom only then I shall find a place to speak after I have said a
little about their seniors’, Cic. Brut. 96)
what i want to say is: after losing him, mary and joseph find young jesus (at last, only then) at the temple. well iam reperiunt sounds better to me now.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
we can give a finger to latin grammar and use english punctuation:

archangelus gabriel mariae annuntiat: concipet filium dei

lol!
Indeed, that also came to my mind ;) , but I eventually thought that it sounded too unnatural (in English as well as in Latin, it seems to me...). I'm not saying it's impossible, but if it happened it would be probably quite exceptional...
no but seriously for a change i do wonder, since you read medieval manuscripts, have you ever seen anything like this pacis puella?
Mmm... I can't swear but if I have I don't remember.
what i want to say is: after losing him, mary and joseph find young jesus (at last, only then) at the temple. well iam reperiunt sounds better to me now.
Yes, in your first version iam looked like referring more to docentem, "they found him now teaching the Rabbis". But it doesn't change what I was saying, that there's nothing in the English version that's calling for iam - no "now", and no "at last" or "only then" either.
 

CarloScalisi

New Member
Pacis Puella
Salvete omnes,







Thank you for the help. I've been trying to follow along and implement the changes, and then make the corrections. Here's what I have, and I'm hoping that you can tell me if they are correct. And if they are not correct, can you just please write the entire correct phrase. It's hard to add ubi here and quo there and punctuation and then hope it's right. If I have the exact way to write it, it'd be better.
And remember, these are just prayers, something I will personally recite and direct toward a deity. I don't know anything about medieval manuscripts or relative attraction.
Thank you guys so much!!
Archángelus Gabrihel Maríae annuntiat quod concipiet filium Dei.
María visit cognatam suam Elisabéth, quae praegnata est Ioanne Baptista.
Iesus natus est in praesepio extra Bethleem.
Ioseph et Maria Iesum in templo Hierosolymorum praesentaverunt ubi Simoni obvii fuerunt.
(I know there was something about using "occurro" for "to meet," but I'm not exactly sure how to use it.)
Reperiunt amissum Iesum puerum apud templum docentem magistros.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Occurro takes the dative of the person "met" as well, but obvii is ok; however, you have "meet" in the present in the English version and fuerunt is past, so right now obvii fuerunt = met. For "meet" in the present, change fuerunt to sunt. Options: .... ubi Simoni obvii sunt or ubi Simoni occurrunt.

Same thing about the tense of natus est; you have the present "is born" in the English, so perhaps change it to nascitur.

Apart from that it's fine.
 

CarloScalisi

New Member
Occurro takes the dative of the person "met" as well...

Thank you, again! I'm hoping that you'll be willing to continue to help me. I have finished the Joyful Mysteries and am now moving on to the Sorrowful Mysteries. I would greatly appreciate some more help.

1) How would you say, in Latin of course, "On Mondays and Saturdays," or "On Tuesdays and Fridays". Under the title of the mysteries, I'm including on which days they should be used. The Joyful, for example, are on Mondays and Saturdays. The Sorrowful on Tuesdays and Fridays. I'm not sure how to translate "on" in this case. Here's what I've guessed for the aforementioned translations: "in feriis secundis et sábbatis" and "in feriis tertiis et sextis".

The following are the titles of the Sorrowful Mysteries that I need help translating.

The Agony in the Garden (Cruciatus in Horto?)
Jesus undergoes a profound agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, sweating water and blood, with the Apostles sleeping nearby, as Judas Iscariot leads a crowd there to arrest him.

The Scourging at the Pillar (Flagellatio...?)
Pontius Pilate orders his Roman soldiers to scourge Jesus.

The Crowning with Thorns (Coronatio spinis?)
Because Jesus had been called the King of the Jews, Roman soldiers mocked him by crowning him with thorns.

The Carrying of the Cross (Baiulatio crucis?)
Condemned to Crucifixion, Jesus carries his own Cross to Mount Calvary, falling three times along the way.

The Crucifixion (Crucifixio?)
Jesus is nailed to the cross and dies before his Mother and his apostle John.

I know that this is a lot, but again, it would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if you're willing to help again. Gratias tibi ago!

Carlo
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Yes, I will when I have time.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
1) How would you say, in Latin of course, "On Mondays and Saturdays," or "On Tuesdays and Fridays". Under the title of the mysteries, I'm including on which days they should be used. The Joyful, for example, are on Mondays and Saturdays. The Sorrowful on Tuesdays and Fridays. I'm not sure how to translate "on" in this case. Here's what I've guessed for the aforementioned translations: "in feriis secundis et sábbatis" and "in feriis tertiis et sextis".
In classical Latin you would use the ablative alone (ablative of "time at which"). In ecclesiastical latin, though, it's perfectly acceptable to use in as you did. So it's a matter of style/period you wish to imitate.
The Agony in the Garden (Cruciatus in Horto?)
Agonia is the word used in the Vulgate in Luke 22:43. So if we stay "traditional": agonia in horto.
Jesus undergoes a profound agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, sweating water and blood, with the Apostles sleeping nearby, as Judas Iscariot leads a crowd there to arrest him.
Iesus in horto Gethsemani agoniam altam patitur, sudans aqua et sanguine, dormientibus prope apostolis, dum Iudas Iscariotes adducit illuc turbam ad comprehendendum illum.
The Scourging at the Pillar (Flagellatio...?)
Flagellatio ad columnam.
Pontius Pilate orders his Roman soldiers to scourge Jesus.
Pontius Pilatus militibus Romanis suis imperat flagellare Iesum.
The Crowning with Thorns (Coronatio spinis?)
Coronatio spinosa.
Because Jesus had been called the King of the Jews, Roman soldiers mocked him by crowning him with thorns.
Quia Iesus Rex Iudaeorum appellatus erat, milites Romani illuserunt eum spinis coronando.
The Carrying of the Cross (Baiulatio crucis?)
Portatio Crucis.
Condemned to Crucifixion, Jesus carries his own Cross to Mount Calvary, falling three times along the way.
Crucifixione damnatus, Iesus suam crucem ad Montem Calvariae portat ter cadens in itinere.
The Crucifixion (Crucifixio?)
Yes.
Jesus is nailed to the cross and dies before his Mother and his apostle John.
Figitur Iesus cruci et coram matre sua et apostolo suo Ioanne moritur.

I found the names I used for the flagellation, coronation etc. here.
 

CarloScalisi

New Member
In classical Latin you would use the ablative alone (ablative of "time at which"). In ecclesiastical latin...

Salve Pacis Puella,

Thank you so much for all your help. I haven't had much time to work on the Prayer Book, but I've added all the information that you gave me. So I just wanted to say thank you again!
 

StilichoVandalus

New Member
I confirm what Abbatissae Scriptor said about the first one, and perhaps I would also reverse the kinds of pronouns and say illas ei revelasti.

In the second one, confidentem, as referring to the subject of spero, should be in the nominative: confidens.

"... to serve you in this life and to obtain eternal happiness in the next" I would continue as ... ut in hac vita serviam tibi et aeternam beatitudinem adipiscar in sequenti.

O my God, I love you with my whole heart and above all things, because you are infinitely good and perfect, and I love my neighbor as myself for love of thee. Grant that I may love you more and more in this life, and in the next for all eternity. Amen.

O Deus meus, toto corde et supra omnia diligo te, quia infinite bonus perfectusque es, et proximum meum diligo sicut me ipsum propter dilectionem tui. Da ut in hac vita te magis magisque diligere possim, atque in sequenti in aeternum/in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Wouldn't "Te corde" perhaps be more appropriate, or not properly ecclesiastical?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member

CarloScalisi

New Member
In classical Latin...
Salve Pacifica,

I am in need of your help once again, if you would be so kind. I am on to the Glorious and Luminous Mysteries. Here are the Titles and descriptions and fruits which I need help translating. Please let me know what you think.

Thank you!!!

The Resurrection
On the third day, the first Easter Sunday morning, Jesus rises from the dead.
Faith

The Ascension
Jesus appears to the disciples over the course of 40 days and ascends into the clouds.
Hope

The Descent of the Holy Spirit
The Apostles receive the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire in the upper room with Mary.
Love of God

The Assumption
Mary is taken bodily - assumed - into heaven by God at the end of her life here on earth.
Grace of a happy death

The Coronation of Mary
Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.
Trust in Mary's intercession

----

The Baptism in the Jordan
The voice of the Father declares Jesus the beloved son.
Openness to the Holy Spirit

The Wedding at Cana
Christ changes water into wine, his first public miracle.
To Jesus through Mary

The Proclamation of the Kingdom
Jesus calls to conversion and forgives the sins of all who draw near to him.
Repentance and Trust in God

The Transfiguration
The glory of the Godhead shines forth from the face of Christ.
Desire for holiness

The Institution of the Eucharist
Jesus offers the first Mass at the Last Supper with his apostles, establishing the sacramental foundation for all Christian living.
Adoration

Thank you again so, so much!!!!!

 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
The Resurrection
On the third day, the first Easter Sunday morning, Jesus rises from the dead.
Faith
There's something I'm not sure of here.

Does anyone know how I should translate this "Sunday"? On the one hand, if I use the Christian term, dies Dominica (lit. "the Lord's day"), it looks anachronistic, because it was called like that after Jesus's resurrection, so it didn't have that name yet when it happened; on the other hand, if I use dies solis, perhaps it sounds too pagan... Has anyone seen this particular Easter Sunday of the resurrection named in a Christian Latin text?
The Ascension
Jesus appears to the disciples over the course of 40 days and ascends into the clouds.
Hope
Ascensio.
Iesus discipulis per XL dies apparet atque in nubes ascendit.
Spes.
The Descent of the Holy Spirit
The Apostles receive the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire in the upper room with Mary.
Love of God
Descensio Spiritus Sancti.
Apostoli cum Maria in conclavi superiore Spiritum Sanctum accipiunt in linguis ignis.
Caritas Dei.
The Assumption
Mary is taken bodily - assumed - into heaven by God at the end of her life here on earth.
Grace of a happy death
Assumptio.
Maria corporaliter a Deo in caelum assumitur* in fine vitae suae terrenae.
Gratia beatae mortis.

*I don't think it's necessary to use two synonyms or near-synonyms for "taken" and "assumed" in the Latin: my idea is that you used both words because "taken" is more normal English in this sense, but you also wanted to add "assumed" to sort of make the link with the word "assumption"; but I think assumitur (which makes the link), works well enough on its own in Latin...
The Coronation of Mary
Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.
Coronatio Mariae.
Maria Regina Caeli et Terrae coronatur.
Trust in Mary's intercession
Do you mean "trust" as a noun or as a verb here? Thus far you've used only nouns in those last lines, but I want to make sure.

That's it for today; I'll do the rest later.
 

Etaoin Shrdlu

μεσσηγυδορποχέστης
Does anyone know how I should translate this "Sunday"? On the one hand, if I use the Christian term, dies Dominica (lit. "the Lord's day"), it looks anachronistic, because it was called like that after Jesus's resurrection, so it didn't have that name yet when it happened; on the other hand, if I use dies solis, perhaps it sounds too pagan... Has anyone seen this particular Easter Sunday of the resurrection named in a Christian Latin text?
I can't say I read them often, but googling dominica die surrexit brings up a lot of neo-Latin that I can't be bothered to sift through. I wouldn't worry about anachronism, as one can apparently use the term to refer to events in the OT.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Yeah, I suppose, after all, that for Christian authors dies dominica was just the normal way of referring to Sunday, and perhaps they would have just used it without really thinking beyond that.
 
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