Martini Cromeri ex quarto libro de origine & rebus gestis Polonorum nonnulli loci dubii

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus

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Ok, here's a clear and legible twenty-first century modern digital transcription of a clearly obscurely legible sixteenth-century modern type. Well, almost.

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Cazimirum volunt nonnulli non cum matre pulsum esse, verum aliquanto post, cum ii qui maternae eius fugae auctores fuerant, magnasque clientelas & factiones comparaverant, ab eo sibi metuerent, sive adeo impotentius agerent: ipsum quoque solum vertisse, & in Ungariam ad Stephanum regem propinquum profugisse.

An ethical (?) dative or something? They feared from him for themselves that...?? I know there are a few examples in L&S, but I'm still unable to wrap my mind fully around this construct. The subjunctives here are due to the cum clause, I take it. If so, why isn't the qui clause subjunctive as well? Wouldn't that have to be an instance of attractio modi?

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Scitis quantum nobis imperium, quam amplam gloriam maiores nostri reliquerunt, etc...

Should have been subjunctive in an indirect question, no doubt?

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Fuerat autem futurus hic rex clarissimus & felicissimus...

Not sure, but that verbal combination strikes me as a little odd.
"This king was to be very famous and happy."
It might as well have been erat futurus, right?
 

LCF

One of "those" people

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Ok, here's a clear and legible twenty-first century modern digital transcription of a clearly obscurely legible sixteenth-century modern type. Well, almost.

View attachment 15745

Cazimirum volunt nonnulli non cum matre pulsum esse, verum aliquanto post, cum ii qui maternae eius fugae auctores fuerant, magnasque clientelas & factiones comparaverant, ab eo sibi metuerent, sive adeo impotentius agerent: ipsum quoque solum vertisse, & in Ungariam ad Stephanum regem propinquum profugisse.
You don't have that in Polish? We have it in Russian. "Они там себе их боялись." The sibi expresses a bit of a questioning tone by the author/speaker. I think it's the same in Latin. I'm not sure though.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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An ethical (?) dative or something? They feared from him for themselves that...?? I know there are a few examples in L&S, but I'm still unable to wrap my mind fully around this construct.
They feared for themselves (dative), and what they feared was something bad that would come from him (ab eo).
The subjunctives here are due to the cum clause, I take it.
Yes.
If so, why isn't the qui clause subjunctive as well? Wouldn't that have to be an instance of attractio modi?
An attraction perhaps could conceivably have happened, but it certainly isn't a necessity, and seems more likely not to occur here.
Scitis quantum nobis imperium, quam amplam gloriam maiores nostri reliquerunt, etc...

Should have been subjunctive in an indirect question, no doubt?
If it is an indirect question (the whole sentence isn't there, so I can't be entirely sure, but it seems most likely to be) the subjunctive would normally have been used in classical Latin, yes. But we know that the indicative is frequent enough in later Latin. I guess here it could also be a typo, since only one letter differs between the two moods.
Fuerat autem futurus hic rex clarissimus & felicissimus...

Not sure, but that verbal combination strikes me as a little odd.
"This king was to be very famous and happy."
It might as well have been erat futurus, right?
Yes. But I guess with the pluperfect it's kind of one more step removed from reality.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus

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You don't have that in Polish? We have it in Russian. "Они там себе их боялись." The sibi expresses a bit of a questioning tone by the author/speaker. I think it's the same in Latin. I'm not sure though.
Well, in Polish the verb "to fear something" is reflexive...."bać się [czegoś]"...
 

LCF

One of "those" people

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Well, in Polish the verb "to fear something" is reflexive...."bać się [czegoś]"...
In Russian you can use the word sibi almost with any verb. Illi sibi ambulant. e.g.
 

Matthaeus

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Yeah, I guess it's similar in Polish, but sometimes I find that usage kinda ridiculous and redundant, lol.
I guess it's more of a colloquial thing.
 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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Do you know if this is a shared IE trait? The Old English verb ondrǣdan, 'to fear', was usually reflexive too. And Serbo-Croatian bojati se is reflexive as well.
Lol Serbo-Croatian is an outdated term, but yes, that verb is indeed reflexive in both Croatian and Serbian.

In Slovenian is the same, Bulgarian and hence Macedonian too, so all south Slavic languages.
 

Matthaeus

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Do you know if this is a shared IE trait? The Old English verb ondrǣdan, 'to fear', was usually reflexive too. And Serbo-Croatian bojati se is reflexive as well.
Hac de re nihil scio, cum nihil de IE certe sciam...
 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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I just checked, Bulgarian has боя се aka "boja se" but they also have се страхувам "se strahuyvam" - which is also reflexive, but isn't reflexive in Croatian or Serbian "strahujem". There's also плаша се "plaša se", also reflexive as in Croatian "plašim se".
 
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Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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Now, it'd be interested to see how has this developed in the neighboring languages of the Balkan sprachbund aka, Greek, Romanian and Albanian. Serbian (apart from the Torlakian dialect) doesn't really belong in it, so I'm not including it.
 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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But Matt sorry, I am clogging your thread, so I can move this to a separate thread if you want.
 

Matthaeus

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Not a problem, all my questions here have already been answered. :)
 
Lol Serbo-Croatian is an outdated term, but yes, that verb is indeed reflexive in both Croatian and Serbian.

In Slovenian is the same, Bulgarian and hence Macedonian too, so all south Slavic languages.
Am I supposed to pretend Serbian and Croatian are different languages? Because I'm not gonna do that, as I don't subscribe to nationalist ideologies of any kind.
 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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Am I supposed to pretend Serbian and Croatian are different languages? Because I'm not gonna do that, as I don't subscribe to nationalist ideologies of any kind.
Croatian is a separate language, and was recognised as such when Croatia was accepted into EU. Among the languages of EU it says "Croatian" not "Serbo-Croatian".
Genealogically and typologically they're very much related, culture-wise, nope. Serbian didn't have a long history of writing in Latin, for example. Our very first language of writing was Latin. "Trpimirova darovnica", the very first text in Croatian was written in Latin.

Politics forced two more or less related languages into a mish-mash. Jacob Grimm was the one who coined the unfortunate term, btw.

It's nothing to do with nationalism, but linguistics and philology.
 
Croatian is a separate language, and was recognised as such when Croatia was accepted into EU. Among the languages of EU it says "Croatian" not "Serbo-Croatian".
Genealogically and typologically they're very much related, culture-wise, nope. Serbian didn't have a long history of writing in Latin, for example. Our very first language of writing was Latin. "Trpimirova darovnica", the very first text in Croatian was written in Latin.

Politics forced two more or less related languages into a mish-mash. Jacob Grimm was the one who coined the unfortunate term, btw.

It's nothing to do with nationalism, but linguistics and philology.
Sorry, but all that screams nationalism and the Balkans to me.

I don't even know where to begin with your reasoning that, just because Serbo-Croatian is not an official language in the EU, those languages aren't the same, for example. That's politics, not linguistics.

Scripts also have nothing to do with it. What even is your point? If Americans wrote English using Tengwar, would it not be English?

And your posts indicate that you believe Standard Serbian and Croatian, which are as similar as American and British English are, are different languages because EU and Grimm, but Standard Serbian and Torlakian, which people in Serbia who speak the Standard dialect can barely follow, are the same language.

Seems legit.
 

Bestiola

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Nope not nationalism. I'm basing my claims on what Radoslav Katičić wrote in his book "Hrvatski jezik", where he claims languages can be categorised into three categories - according to typology, genealogy and culture. Croatian and Serbian match in many things but not in culture.

I can upload pdf if you want since I think you can read Croatian :p

It all started when Vatican lost protestant provinces and saw its way of expansion towards east using Russian version of church Slavonic. That meant all this area had to change its Glagolitic books and use the Russian version. Nobody understood anything, but who cares? Then because the Turks where advancing, a lot of the dialects were lost...and stokavian version, as it's standard today became more and more prominent... then came idiot Kopitar and Grimm who proposed this idea of Serbo-Croatian since to Kopitar, Croatian was just a version of Serbian. And of course, to the Austria and Hungary that was all very convenient.

Then came some Croatian linguistic idiots who adhered to the regime, too many bad grammars have been written, Croatian was simplified just to fit the Serbo-Croatian norm...so yeah, now, it's similar, but not the same. We lost genitive plural in-ah, instrumental in -ami and many other things because some idiots wanted to make a unified language. We here speak and write in Croatian, not Serbian, sorry.
 
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Thanks for addressing all the points and not posting more nationalist BS. I'm convinced now that your neighbours speak a different language. :) You're totally not talking to yourself and doing the same thing Serbs do when they talk about their language. That's to be expected, though — different cultures, as you said. :)
 
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Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

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Thanks for addressing all the points and not posting more nationalist BS. I'm convinced now that your neighbours speak a different language. :) You're totally not talking to yourself and doing the same thing Serbs do when they talk about their language. That's to be expected, though — different cultures, as you said. :)
No problem, any time :) I'm so glad I've managed to convince you. Absolutely, I agree with you on everything 100%. :)
 

Etaoin Shrdlu

μεσσηγυδορποχέστης

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I knew a Croatian in NYC, back when there was a Yugoslavia, and the language was officially Serbo-Croatian. I asked him what the difference was between the two languages, apart from the alphabet. He said that one had palatalisation where the other hadn't, and he gave mlijeko/млеко as an example. Apart from that, he said, there were certain words that you might say for X instead of Y, or vice-versa, if you were a Serb or a Croat wanting to Make A Point, but both groups would understand the word (or the alternative) in question, which sounds a bit similar to British v. American English.
 
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