Pronounciation: v as w or w?

A

Anonymous

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In our School motto Fons Vitae Sapientia how is the v sounded. Is it V or wee.


Regards Phil
 
 

cinefactus

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Re: pronounciation

It is wee in Classical Latin, and I think it is v in Ecclesiastical
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

Yes, v in Classical Latin was pronounced like English 'w', so the famous veni, vidi, vici was actually said WEH-nee, WEE-dee, WEE-kee by Caesar, whereas in the vulgar Latin, or ecclesiastical (church Latin) it sounds like our 'v'.
So it all depends on which you prefer. The Classical method, however, is the original and purer one, as it was spoken by the best men in Rome.
 
B

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Re: pronounciation

mattheus dixit:
Yes, v in Classical Latin was pronounced like English 'w', so the famous veni, vidi, vici was actually said WEH-nee, WEE-dee, WEE-kee by Caesar, whereas in the vulgar Latin, or ecclesiastical (church Latin) it sounds like our 'v'.
I don't think the vulgar pronunciation of the classical period was any different in that respect. As far as I know, the pronunciation of the V shifted in post-classical time (as did ae and oe ... and some other sounds) and was then taken up by the church.
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

So you're saying ancient Classical people pronounced the 'v' just like today? Then the Church simply took over that form, since it was OF the people? Am I on the right track here?
 

Imber Ranae

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Re: pronounciation

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that, Mattheus.
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

I don't understand, what is the meaning here then? V was always our 'v' even back then? So that's how it stayed, when the Church took over? That's what I'm gleaning from this conversation.
 

Imber Ranae

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Re: pronounciation

mattheus dixit:
I don't understand, what is the meaning here then? V was always our 'v' even back then? So that's how it stayed, when the Church took over? That's what I'm gleaning from this conversation.
No, I believe he was trying to say that V was probably pronounced as [w] even in the vulgar dialects of classical times, and that it wasn't till quite a bit latter that it shifted to [v]. Since "Vulgar Latin" was never a unified language of any sort, it's likely that the shift occurred at different times in different regions, but it may have begun as early as the first century AD in some places.
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

Do you know of any publication that treats this subject of Latin pronunciation in further detail? I'd be much obliged, because I'd like to get to the bottom of things. It's my quest after truth, if you will. :)
 

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Re: pronounciation

mattheus dixit:
Do you know of any publication that treats this subject of Latin pronunciation in further detail? I'd be much obliged, because I'd like to get to the bottom of things. It's my quest after truth, if you will. :)
Are you interested in the pronunciation of the classical period or generally in the historical phonetics of the Latin language? The latter subject is treated for example in the book Précis de phonétique historique du latin by Max Niedermann, but I don't know if it has been translated into English neither if it's available online. A Russian translation is available, but this fact must be of little importance for you...
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

Nevermind, I have already found this : Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen, Cambridge University Press 2004. Any opinions on that one ?
 

Quasus

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Re: pronounciation

mattheus dixit:
Nevermind, I have already found this : Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen, Cambridge University Press 2004. Any opinions on that one ?
As far as I know that's the best book. Unfortunately it must be under the copyright, so it's impossible to find it in the Web. :(
 
A

Anonymous

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Re: pronounciation

Hello, I am Italian and maybe I can help you saying what I have studied at school. I am 18 and I have been studying Latin for five years: here in Italy Latin is considered an important language for Italian comes all from Latin.
I know that the more used pronounciation, the ecclesiastical (I often hear when I go to church) or scholastic (in fact this is the pronountiation taught in the schools), is the pronounciation that about in the 2nd-1st century BC began to develop in the provinces (Germany, France but also Italian zones far from Rome). It was a slow progress that brought to develop an alternative pronounciation (if you want I can list the differences but I think you already know).
In fact it was during the 1st century that the question of the "pure Latin" began to spread: people started to use more and more this new pronounciation.
The "pure" Latin is the Classical, with a pronounciation that is more similar to Ancient Greek and rougher to hear. When the Church, from the IIIrd-IVth century AD chose Latin as official language, it prefered the popular Latin spoken by common and poor people, to be nearer to them, and that had spread more than the Classical one, destined to disappear.
The evolution of the ecclesiastical Latin brought to Italian.
If you have any questions, I will try to answer with pleasure.
Sorry for my unperfect English.
 
 

Matthaeus

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Re: pronounciation

Gratias tibi ago for your comment! Have you heard the dialogues in the film The Passion and Braveheart? They are typical ecclesiastical Latin. I also watched yesterday a BBC documentary on Pompeii, which also included a gladiator's life from his point of view, and there were Latin dialogues throughout the documentary. I could not always understand everything because of the unclear pronunciation, but I was able to discern the gladiators' oath, something like this: Iuro uri, vinciri et verberari, gladioque necari et quidquid aliud dominus iussisset. The main character, called Verus, came from Moesia, who became friends with a certain Priscus when the Romans invaded their province to be taken to Rome to a gladiatorial school. They say things like Vere, bono animo es and Tempus est proficisci and after Verus returns from a funeral, not being able to find his friend, he inquires the lanista, gladiator trainer, Ubi Priscus? and he's answered by Miseria, sed negotium mihi fuit, or something to that effect. He was sold to another gladiator school, it was just business, replied the lanista. Also, upon Vespasian's funeral, his son and future emperor Titus says,"Te pater desideramus." I was really impressed by the makers' effort to have Latin dialogues. Oh, and the master's shouts, "Et pugnate!", the referee's "Desistite!" I recomment this to all. It's educational and entertaining at the same time. The gladiatorial combat at the end is worth it.
 

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Re: pronounciation

PHILIPS dixit:
In our School motto Fons Vitae Sapientia how is the v sounded. Is it V or wee.


Regards Phil
First of all, it is written and pronounced “pronunciation”.

As for how the V is pronounced in your motto... it's pronounced however you like, really. The natural, Anglicised pronunciation of the word would be /vaɪti/, rhyming with “mighty”, but there are many variants. The Classical Latin pronunciation of it is /wi:tae/, but you need to be aware that it is not normal to use correct Latin pronunciation of Latin words in an English sentence. You would, for example, have to roll your Rs.

If I say (e.g.) “Julius Cæsar” in an English sentence, I say it in the ordinary Anglicised way (which you are no doubt familiar with); but if I say it in a Latin sentence, my pronunciation will be so different that you probably wouldn't recognise it as the same name.
 
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