Psallite sapienter - Sacred music

Gregorius Textor

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

But I'm curious What of that guy's pronunciation sounds strange to you?
It's not the R's, and it's not the accentuation. It's that they seem to insert an extra syllable at the ends of some words, which sounds to me like the English "schwa" sound (i.e. the vowel sound of "a" in "a rule" and of "e" in "the CIC", unless one is trying to speak formally in public and pronouncing the "a" as in "day" and the "e" as in "thee", or the sound of "o" in "to me" , "to share", when the word "to" is not being emphasized). I will indicate that sound by "x":

The young guy making the introduction: (0:29) nosx sumus sodalesx; (0:42) apudx; (0:56) nobisx praebemusx; etc.
The older man giving the main talk: (3:07) antistesx; (3:12) quibusx; (3:19) episcopus igitur estx vocabulum; (3:34) estx inx latinumx sermonum; etc.

I hear the same thing in this recording of Pius XII, who was a Roman born and raised in Rome:

"Pater Noster, qui es in caelisx,
sanctificetur nomen tuum.
Adveniatx regnum tuum.
Fiatx voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra.
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobisx hodie,
etx dimitte nobisx debita nostra
sicut etx nos dimittimusx debitoribus nostris.
Etx ne nos inducas in tentationem,
sedx libera nos a malo.
Amen."

I've heard some Italians doing this when they speak English. I assume they do the same thing when speaking Italian.

Knowing that Italian is full of dialectical variations, I wonder if this is just a Roman thing, or do you Milanese, for example, also speak this way?
 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

It's not the R's, and it's not the accentuation. It's that they seem to insert an extra syllable at the ends of some words, which sounds to me like the English "schwa" sound (i.e. the vowel sound of "a" in "a rule" and of "e" in "the CIC", unless one is trying to speak formally in public and pronouncing the "a" as in "day" and the "e" as in "thee", or the sound of "o" in "to me" , "to share", when the word "to" is not being emphasized). I will indicate that sound by "x":
Thank you for your analsysis. I think everyone does it here, probably I'm used to it to the extent I can't even tell the difference between the "corrupted" s in:
and the "normal" one in:
However, Pius XII isn't saying a Pater noster in that recording.
I attach my voice with a very short (<20s) and very common piece of prayer with a lot of "s"es. When you have time and feel like it please tell me whether you find the same issue in it or not. (Just to be precise I live in Milan, but I'm from the northmost part of what was then the patriarchate of Aquileia).
thank you for posting it and introducing some variations (even if I have no idea what they're saying). In fact the thread I had in mind ab origine was meant to contain a variety of stuff from all religions, over time it grew to be "the Catholic corner" :D . That's hardly surprising, since it's a religion where there's a massive "repertoire" of Latin chants and Latin still plays an important role (less and less though: as this video prooves). But it's good to reming everybody they can post whatever they wish.
 

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Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

  • Praetor

thank you for posting it and introducing some variations (even if I have no idea what they're saying). In fact the thread I had in mind ab origine was meant to contain a variety of stuff from all religions, over time it grew to be "the Catholic corner" :D . That's hardly surprising, since it's a religion where there's a massive "repertoire" of Latin chants and Latin still plays an important role (less and less though: as this video prooves). But it's good to reming everybody they can post whatever they wish.
No problem, I'm glad if you like, and I can find more :)

(I'm personally more inclining towards the Buddhism, but to Chan/Zen school :hiding: ).

Tibetan Buddhism is known for its beautiful chanting, which is why I posted that - this one is my favourite version of Heart Sutra:

 
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Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

  • Praetor

thank you for posting it and introducing some variations (even if I have no idea what they're saying)
It's a "Medicine Buddha" - a special chanting for those in need, sick, ill etc.

Here is the meaning:

“To the Bhagawan with equal compassion for all
Whose name when just heard dispels lower realms’ suffering
Dispeller of disease and the three poisons
I prostrate to Medicine Buddha Lapis Light.”

tayatha om bekandze bekandze maha bekandze radza samudgate soh


 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

  • Praetor

And here's text of the heart sutra and translation:


 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Nice. So far I had only heard of the mantra "Hare Krishna", because it's also the name of a group of people that gather and pray together.
 

Bestiola

Sciura Tigrina Croatica

  • Praetor

Nice. So far I had only heard of the mantra "Hare Krishna", because it's also the name of a group of people that gather and pray together.
Yeah, in Buddhism, especially in Mahayana tradition, they have a lot of mantras they use, like rosemary in Catholic tradition, and usually for the same purpose.
 

Gregorius Textor

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Thank you for your analsysis. I think everyone does it here, probably I'm used to it to the extent I can't even tell the difference between the "corrupted" s in: [nosx]
and the "normal" one in: [sumus]
However, Pius XII isn't saying a Pater noster in that recording.
I attach my voice with a very short (<20s) and very common piece of prayer with a lot of "s"es. When you have time and feel like it please tell me whether you find the same issue in it or not. (Just to be precise I live in Milan, but I'm from the northmost part of what was then the patriarchate of Aquileia).
Ha! Since you reported not hearing the difference, I thought "It must be because he speaks that way, too." But in fact, I do not hear the extra"x" in your recording Trisagion.wav.

I wouldn't say it's an "issue", just a phenomenon (and by that, I don't mean something spectacular, but just something that can be observed or experienced).

Incidentally, by listening to your "sanctus sanctus sanctus", I have just come to realize that "trisagion" (a word I've heard or read before a few times but without understanding except that it pertains to Greek liturgy) must mean "thrice holy".
 

Gregorius Textor

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

And here's text of the heart sutra and translation:


I appreciate your sharing the translation and commentary. I especially like the story of the twisted nose.
 

EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Ha! Since you reported not hearing the difference, I thought "It must be because he speaks that way, too." But in fact, I do not hear the extra"x" in your recording Trisagion.wav.

I wouldn't say it's an "issue", just a phenomenon (and by that, I don't mean something spectacular, but just something that can be observed or experienced).

Incidentally, by listening to your "sanctus sanctus sanctus", I have just come to realize that "trisagion" (a word I've heard or read before a few times but without understanding except that it pertains to Greek liturgy) must mean "thrice holy".
Gratias tibi ago propter responsum tuum. Proculdubio omnes qui circum me sunt more meo loquuntur. Ut ait Cicero, tantum "musicorum aures vel minima sentiunt", sed ego musicus non sunt, nam exaudire auribus meis hunc vocis afflatum non possum.
Caelitus sit tibi gratiae copia.
P.S.: Esto parato, amice, quoniam crastino die festum magnum celebrabimur!
 
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Terry S.

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Terry S.

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Terry S.

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Terry S.

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EstQuodFulmineIungo

Civis Illustris

  • Civis Illustris

Orthodox/Russian version of the Miserere sung by the monastical community of Moscow's Sretrensky Monastery.

Помилуй мя, Боже, по велицей милости Твоей.
и по множеству щедрот Твоих очисти беззаконие мое.
Miserere mei, Deus: secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum, dele iniquitatem meam.
Наипаче омый мя от беззакония моего: и от греха моего очисти мя.Amplius lava me ab iniquitate mea: et a peccato meo munda me.
Яко беззаконие мое аз знаю, и грех мой предо мною есть выну.Quoniam iniquitatem meam ego cognosco: et peccatum meum contra me est semper.
Тебе Единому согреших и лукавое пред Тобою сотворих, яко да оправдишися во словесех Твоих, и победиши внегда судити Ти.Tibi soli peccavi, et malum coram te feci: ut justificeris in sermonibus tuis, et vincas cum judicaris.
Се бо в беззакониях зачат есмь, и во гресех роди мя мати моя.Ecce enim in iniquitatibus conceptus sum: et in peccatis concepit me mater mea.
Се бо истину возлюбил еси, безвестная и тайная премудрости Твоея явил ми есиEcce enim veritatem dilexisti: incerta et occulta sapientiae tuae manifestasti mihi.
Окропиши мя иссопом, и очищуся, омыеши мя, и паче снега убелюсяAsperges me hyssopo, et mundabor: lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.
Слуху моему даси радость и веселие, возрадуются кости смиренныяAuditui meo dabis gaudium et laetitiam: et exsultabunt ossa humiliata.
Отврати лице Твое от грех моих и вся беззакония моя очистиAverte faciem tuam a peccatis meis: et omnes iniquitates meas dele.
Сердце чисто созижди во мне, Боже, и дух прав обнови во утробе моей.Cor mundum crea in me, Deus: et spiritum rectum innova in visceribus meis.
Не отвержи мене от лица Твоего, и Духа Твоего Святаго не отыми от менеNe proiicias me a facie tua: et spiritum sanctum tuum ne auferas a me.
Воздаждь ми радость спасения Твоего, и Духом владычним утверди мя.Redde mihi laetitiam salutaris tui: et spiritu principali confirma me.
Научу беззаконыя путем Твоим, и нечестивии к Тебе обратятсяDocebo iniquos vias tuas: et impii ad te convertentur.
Избави мя от кровей, Боже, Боже спасения моего, возрадуется язык мой правде Твоей.Libera me de sanguinibus, Deus, Deus salutis meae: et exsultabit lingua mea justitiam tuam.
Господи, устне мои отверзеши, и уста моя возвестят хвалу ТвоюDomine, labia mea aperies: et os meum annuntiabit laudem tuam
Яко аще бы восхотел еси жертвы, дал бых убо: всесожжения не благоволишиQuoniam si voluisses sacrificium, dedissem utique: holocaustis non delectaberis.
Жертва Богу дух сокрушен: сердце сокрушенно и смиренно Бог не уничижит.Sacrificium Deo spiritus contribulatus: cor contritum, et humiliatum, Deus, non despicies.
Ублажи, Господи, благоволением Твоим Сиона, и да созиждутся стены Иерусалимския.Benigne fac, Domine, in bona voluntate tua Sion: ut aedificentur muri Ierusalem.
Тогда благоволиши жертву правды, возношение и всесожегаемая:
тогда возложат на олтарь Твой тельцы.
Tunc acceptabis sacrificium justitiae, oblationes, et holocausta:
tunc imponent super altare tuum vitulos
 
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