Saturnalia 2.1

[NubusLatinae1770]

Salvete omnes,

I was wondering if someone could help illuminate the phenomenon of using the ablative absolute with dative endings (or i-stem endings in the ablative of present participle). Likewise, the substitution of ablative nouns for adverbs.

The example I have is from Saturnalia 2.1, where Decius says,

"Temptanti mihi, Postumiane, aditus tuos et mollissima consultandi tempora commodo adsunt feriae quas indulget magna pars mensis Iano dicati"

My translation is along these lines (feel free to critique if I am reading something wrong!), "It is a fit time [commodo], Postumianus, that I test your arrival and the most agreeable times of asking [you], for the holiday is here, which a great part of the month dedicated to Ianus bestows/grants [upon us]"

Here, in an old edition of Macrobius, the usage of commodo is glossed: "cotidio, ut falso, pro cotidie, et similiter commodo dixerunt, ut Plautus in Frivolaria". Yet I don't truly understand why these forms are used in place of adverbial forms. Maybe it is just a colloquial usage I am unfamiliar with.

Cicero uses both of these features in the beginning of his De Oratore:

"Cogitanti mihi saepenumero et memoria vetera repetenti"

Here likewise is the ablative absolute featuring a dative form of the first person pronoun, and a I-stem ending on the participle, and a similar adverbial usage.

I'm just hoping someone can elucidate why these forms are used, and if they are rather common and I should just read them as I would a normal ablative absolute and adverb.

Pax vobis

 

[Bitmap]

I was wondering if someone could help illuminate the phenomenon of using the ablative absolute with dative endings (or i-stem endings in the ablative of present participle). Likewise, the substitution of ablative nouns for adverbs.

It's not an ablative absolute in this case, but a participium coniunctum in the dative.

I think they don't call it participium coniunctum in English, but I forgot what they actually call it.

@Dantius
@Pacifica

 

[Quasus]

Here, in an old edition of Macrobius, the usage of commodo is glossed: "cotidio, ut falso, pro cotidie, et similiter commodo dixerunt, ut Plautus in Frivolaria". Yet I don't truly understand why these forms are used in place of adverbial forms.

I'd say it's a question of vocabulary rather than grammar. It's a fossilized ablative, it's listed in LTL as an adverb on its own right. This doesn't mean that an arbitrary ablative can be turned into an adverb.

 

[Agrippa]

Structure of the sentence (Macrobius, saturnalia 1, 2, 1)

"Temptanti mihi, Postumiane, aditus tuos et mollissima consultandi tempora commodo adsunt feriae quas indulget magna pars mensis Iano dicati"

Temptanti mihi (dative denoting the person to whom something is granted; temptanti: predicate use of participle equivalent to a subordinate clause) to me - trying

aditus tuos et mollissima consultandi tempora (direct obj.) the possibility of approaching you and of most susceptible circumstances for consulting you

commodo (adv.) just in time

adsunt (predicate) are present

feriae (subject) the days of rest

quas (dir. obj.) that

indulget (predicate) grants

magna pars (subject) the great part

mensis Iano dicati (genitive, attributive) of the month dedicated to Janus.

 

[NubusLatinae1770]

Structure of the sentence (Macrobius, saturnalia 1, 2, 1)


Temptanti mihi (dative denoting the person to whom something is granted; temptanti: predicate use of participle equivalent to a subordinate clause) to me - trying

Is it fair to say that Temptanti mihi is a predicate of commodo feriae adsunt...? As to say, "its just in time the holidays are here...[granted to me] trying the possiblity..."

 

[NubusLatinae1770]

I'd say it's a question of vocabulary rather than grammar. It's a fossilized ablative, it's listed in LTL as an adverb on its own right. This doesn't mean that an arbitrary ablative can be turned into an adverb.

This makes more sense indeed!

 

[Agrippa]

Is it fair to say that Temptanti mihi is a predicate of commodo feriae adsunt...? As to say, "its just in time the holidays are here...[granted to me] trying the possiblity..."

It's not a predicate, but an indirect object.

Is this a similar usage in the Cicero I quote above?

Yes.

 

[NubusLatinae1770]

It's not a predicate, but an indirect object.
Yes.

Ahhh, I see. Many thanks for helping me out with this.

 

[Dantius]

It's not an ablative absolute in this case, but a participium coniunctum in the dative.

I think they don't call it participium coniunctum in English, but I forgot what they actually call it.

@Dantius
@Pacifica

it is just a participle (and the phrase temptanti... aditus tuos etc. is a participial phrase)

it is perhaps interesting to note that the sentence references aeneid 4.293-294 (temptaturum aditus et quae mollissima fandi / tempora, quis rebus dexter modus).

 

[Glabrigausapes]

Wes þu hal, Niwaf Lædenes!