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In the olden days, people still learnt to write in different authors' styles.
Who considers that a mistake? It isn't even a mistake by Ciceronian standards.often putting the finite verb after the subject or otherwise at or near the end with an accompanying infinitive in the middle (Erant autem quī dēferre minōrēs opēs volēbant ad urbem illam...), as in so much Late Latin, shouldn't be considered a mistake.
Did you read all of my post? Particularly this bit:How did Plautus get on your list? Most Ciceronians dismiss his style.
I'm not a hardcore Ciceronianist.
Did you read all of my post? Particularly this bit:
Just that I like minions and I like you.What does that mean?
I was listening to Vivarium Novum seminars recently and had the impression that they use SVO a lot when talking, but I may be wrong.I like the Vulgate quite a bit. And I personally have zero personal problems with Late Latin. In fact, I'd prefer it if most everything in terms of formal writings from Cato the Elder all the way down to writings by the more learned authors of the 5th and 6th century AD was fair game (so including Symmachus, Orosius, Vegetius, Hilarius, Boethius, Isidore, Pope Gregory I). I consider them native speakers of Latin too after all, even if for later authors the written language was quite a bit more distanced from their natural dialect than the earlier ones. I'd say that writing mostly in SVO sentences, often putting the finite verb after the subject or otherwise at or near the end with an accompanying infinitive in the middle (Erant autem quī dēferre minōrēs opēs volēbant ad urbem illam...), as in so much Late Latin, shouldn't be considered a mistake. Nevertheless I actually avoid such things because I've come to understand that socially my view is an unusual one...
I agree Castellio's Bible sounds excessively convoluted in order to Ciceronian, but it's still interesting to have a look at.
Have you ever tried that? I haven't; not extensively at least. It mustn't be easy. I think there's little point, in serious writing, in trying to produce a copy of another author's style, but as an exercise I guess it can be good.In the olden days, people still learnt to write in different authors' styles.
Not in prose. I try to follow the metrical standards set up by Ovid as much as I can and try to borrow a few of his word choices, favourite stylistic devices and latent, little humour to the extent I'm able to. But obviously my lines wouldn't ever pass for Naso.Have you ever tried that? I haven't; not extensively at least.
Well, I think it requires a lot of reading of one specific author and doing some writing exercises alongside (that's how we did it with Cicero). I think you get a rather decent feeling eventually. For example, I would expect Dantius to have a good feeling for Livius.It mustn't be easy.
What kind of serious writing?I think there's little point, in serious writing, in trying to produce a copy of another author's style, but as an exercise I guess it can be good.
Which doesn't mean anyone expected Ciceronian style, btw. People were happy enough if somebody produced a semi-comprehensible sentence without too many mistakes.that's how we did it with Cicero
If done now and then, a text would remain perfectly Ciceronian. Writing nearly every sentence as SVO or S + finite verb + O + infinitive is not exactly Ciceronian though. It is true, however, that I misremembered why the S + infinitive + O + V construction is relevant though: the thing is that it becomes rarer in Late Latin, not more frequent. I actually just found there is a whole chapter in a recent linguistics book entitled Word Order Change (2018, Martins & Cardoso), written by a latinist called Lieven Danckaert, which "investigates the loss of the word order pattern 'V-O-Aux' in Latin. This order was fully productive in Classical Latin, but in the Late Latin period (from 150 until 600 AD) the relevant pattern is only rarely attested".Who considers that a mistake? It isn't even a mistake by Ciceronian standards.
Hmmm ... technically speaking, that one doesn't even finish monosyllabically.- "ab istius petulantia conservare non licitum est" [In Verrem I.14],
I have no idea what he means by that.Hae compositiones demutatae facient nostri temporis structuras sic,
- ex tribrachy et ditrochaeo, "ab istius petulantia non est licitum conservare",
- ex trochaeo et dactylo, "quae sunt G. Verri cum his civitatibus communicata",
- ex ditrochaeo et bacchio a longa, "id quod populus Romanus iam diu efflagitat, extincta sit atque deleta".
It optionally can; synaloepha is not mandatory.Hmmm ... technically speaking, that one doesn't even finish monosyllabically.
I think he's using the metrical terms to talk about groups of syllables by number, completely ignoring traditional vowel length and natural stress. So when he describes licitum conservare as a "tribrach and ditrochee", what he means is licitum as a trisyllabic word (tribrach) and conservare as four-syllable one (ditrochee). He seems to describe the five syllables of communicata as a trochee + dactyl. I'm not sure what ditrochaeus et bacchius a longa would mean for extincta sit atque deleta though.I have no idea what he means by that.
What the hell?I think he's using the metrical terms to talk about groups of syllables by number, completely ignoring traditional vowel length and natural stress. So when he describes licitum conservare as a "tribrach and ditrochee", what he means is licitum as a trisyllabic word (tribrach) and conservare as four-syllable one (ditrochee). He seems to describe the five syllablkes of communicata as a trochee + datyl. I'm not sure what ditrochaeus et bacchius a longa would mean for extincta sit atque deleta though (or extinguenda sit atque delenda).
Personally I see it as a bullshit explanation to not have to think of the real reason: that putting an auxiliary verb at the end was becoming less acceptable in his day in the late 3rd century, as part of a larger movement towards SVO order, to the point that even a paragon of Latin like Tully was now sounding archaic. You sometimes come across similar bullshit explanations about English grammars from naïve native speakers, which sometimes includes English high school teachers and ESL teachers, explaining something as "tone" or "ugly vs. beautiful sound" to not have to think about grammar or the real patterns of style and genre.What the hell?
I don't think any Roman of Cicero's time would ever not have elided the est there ... apart from that, eliding it gives you the most typical Ciceronian clausula - u - / - - (in this case more precisely - u - / u u - for -vare non/ licitumst)It optionally can; synaloepha is not mandatory.
That makes some sense in the first example ... and it makes sense in the third example if you consider that a in extincta to be longa (which might be what he meant by a longa?!) ... but he's losing me on the 2nd phrase.I think he's using the metrical terms to talk about groups of syllables by number, completely ignoring traditional vowel length and natural stress. So when he describes licitum conservare as a "tribrach and ditrochee", what he means is licitum as a trisyllabic word (tribrach) and conservare as four-syllable one (ditrochee). He seems to describe the five syllablkes of communicata as a trochee + datyl. I'm not sure what ditrochaeus et bacchius a longa would mean for extincta sit atque deleta though.
Cicero's way of putting it would have passed as a trochee and some kind of dactyle: -municata sunt = - u / - u xbut he's losing me on the 2nd phrase.
Yes, but I'm saying Plotius Sacerdos may have lacked the elision of e-. Also, that clausula of cōnservāre nōn licitum est is nevertheless not a tribrach + ditrochee, so the grammarian is not talking about that.I don't think any Roman of Cicero's time would ever not have elided the est there ... apart from that, eliding it gives you the most typical Ciceronian clausula - u - / - - (in this case more precisely - u - / u u - for -vare non/ licitumst)
I don't think think the -a in extincta can be read as long at all in any way. It's a feminine nominative modifying omnis improbitas (it appears as extinguenda below):That makes some sense in the first example ... and it makes sense in the third example if you consider that a in extincta to be longa (which might be what he meant by a longa?!) ... but he's losing me on the 2nd phrase.