Translation of Nominative followed by Genitive proper name

[sethknorr]

When a nominative is followed by a genitive proper name, either feminine or masculine, I’m wondering what everyone here believes is the range of VALID translations, assuming there are no modifiers.

For instance, “Iacobum Alphei”

I realize the proper translation would be “James the son of Alphaeus” based on the context of Luke 6:15 in the Bible. But assuming we have no context, could “Alphaeus the son of James” be a valid translation?

Second if the first name was nominative feminine, what are the options? Ie. Say you had the names: “Maria Alphei”

What are valid:
Mary the daughter of Alphaeus
Alphaeus the son of Mary
Mary the wife of Alphaeus
Etc...

What does everyone think is valid and/or invalid?

I appreciate everyone’s point of view.

Thanks,

Seth

 

[Pacifica]

But assuming we have no context, could “Alphaeus the son of James” be a valid translation?

No, that would be Alphaeus Iacobi. The "of" part needs to be in the genitive.

Mary the daughter of Alphaeus

Correct.

Alphaeus the son of Mary

No, that would be Alphaeus Mariae.

Mary the wife of Alphaeus

That's probably possible in context.

 

[sethknorr]

Pacifica, thanks for your quick reply. A follow up question.

If the proper name that followed “Maria” was indeclinable, would any of your answers change as to what is possible?

 

[Pacifica]

If it's indeclinable, it can theoretically be any case and you need to see the larger context to find out which case it functions as. It doesn't, however, have any influence on the interpretation of Maria itself, since Maria has its own case. So, whatever follows it, Maria can't translate as "of Mary", since that would require the genitive Mariae.

 

[sethknorr]

Thanks for the answers. I didn’t give the below example because I wanted unbiased answers.

So the Latin in Mark 15:47:
Maria autem Magdalene et Maria Ioseph aspiciebant ubi poneretur

Douay-Rheims translates this:
“And Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of Joseph, beheld where he was laid.”

So do you think this is an inaccurate translation, “Mary the mother of Joseph.”

Other translations like Wycliffe translated this as “Mary of Joseph.”

 

[Issacus Divus]

Both "mother of Joseph" and "of Joseph" work.

 

[sethknorr]

Issacus, if we assume that “mother of” is correct, what case are you putting Ioseph in?

 

[Issacus Divus]

We'd be putting it into the genitive.

Mary of Joseph, Maria Ioseph.

I don't know why indeclinable nouns were ever a thing, to be honest, maybe an attempt to imitate the Aramaic and Hebrew names.

 

[sethknorr]

Issacuss, I would agree that Ioseph is a Genitive. When I pose this question generically to Latin translators, as I did on here, universally I get the answer that, without modifiers, “mother of” is not possible because it wouldn’t make sense grammatically.

So my follow up question is, is there anywhere else, outside the Latin Vulgate, where a nominative proper name is followed by a Genitive proper name, with no modifiers, and it would be translated based on context, (Nominative name) (the mother/father) of (Genitive name)?

Also if they meant Mary the mother of Joseph, why wouldn’t they have written, “Ioseph Mariae”?

 

[Pacifica]

This "name + name in the genitive" thing is a calque of Greek, found mostly in later Latin. It is not part of classical Latin grammar, so that may be why the other Latin translators you've consulted couldn't make sense of it. I've seen the construction in Latin inscriptions and a few random texts, not only in the Vulgate. In most of the cases I've seen, the name in the genitive denoted a father, but I guess that, depending on context, it can stand for any family member.

Also if they meant Mary the mother of Joseph, why wouldn’t they have written, “Ioseph Mariae”?

Because it's Joseph that needs to be in the genitive to mean "of Joseph". Mary shouldn't be in the genitive, unless you mean "of Mary", which you don't.

 

[sethknorr]

Because it's Joseph that needs to be in the genitive to mean "of Joseph". Mary shouldn't be in the genitive, unless you mean "of Mary", which you don't.

If your translation is “Mary the [mother] of Joseph” then you are saying “Joseph of Mary”. Which is my point, if the writer meant that, why not make Mary the genitive.

but I guess that, depending on context, it can stand for any family member.

My main question is, have you seen it where it is reversed. Ie, the genitive is the son/daughter. Or are you just saying hypothetically it’s a possibility, but unseen?

 

[Pacifica]

If your translation is “Mary the [mother] of Joseph” then you are saying “Joseph of Mary”.

No, you don't. You mean "Mary [the mother] of Joseph".

My main question is, have you seen it where it is reversed. Ie, the genitive is the son/daughter. Or are you just saying hypothetically it’s a possibility, but unseen?

I don't remember seeing it elsewhere myself.

 

[Pacifica]

This Greek grammar confirms that, although the word implied with the genitive is most often "son" or "daughter", it can also denote other relationships like "father", "mother", "husband", "wife", "brother"... (these are the meanings of the Greek words following "more rarely").

As for the Bible verse that you're concerned with, it is ambiguous by itself, since "of Joseph" could in theory stand for "daughter of Joseph" as well as "mother of Joseph" and even other things. I don't know this Mary's genealogy myself, but I would suggest perhaps consulting different translations of the verse, in several languages if possible, and if many have "mother of Joseph" and none "daughter/wife... of Joseph", then I would assume the translators probably had good reason to think she was his mother (though of course it's still no definite proof). In any case, the key isn't in the grammar.

 

[Gregorius Textor]

sethknorr dixit:
Also if they meant Mary the mother of Joseph, why wouldn’t they have written, “Ioseph Mariae”?

Because it's Joseph that needs to be in the genitive to mean "of Joseph". Mary shouldn't be in the genitive, unless you mean "of Mary", which you don't.

And because it's Mary, not Joseph (or Joses in some translations), who with the other Mary did the seeing where He was laid; Maria needs to be in the nominative case.

From the words "Maria Ioseph" alone, I think all we can infer is that it is Maria who is somehow related to Ioseph (agreeing with Pacifica).